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Darkweaver

Devs; why do you keep rolling over the small company & solo player?

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Can this be disabled for PvP too please?

With this change any company that has built on claimed land can potentially lose all they have ever built if they lose control of their claim flag. Offline raids are bad enough already, but at least currently it still takes some effort to wipe every single structure off an island. This nuke does not even require to demolish large buildings or even attack most outposts. You just need to capture the claim flag area - which is often itself not even defended, hold it for a few days, and anything that anyone has ever built on the island can be instanuked. This includes safe caches on mountaintops, secret stashes below the water line, all harbours, pens, stables, houses, farms, forts, turrets, buildings, paths, really everything. It has an enormous griefing potential and will be used in 9 out of 10 cases to wreck months of work instead of combating pillar spam. Any reasonable company will now relocate to lawless as with this change constant war is still safer than the risk of getting nuked - this single, small change is that bad.

I agree that overcoming pillar spam is important, but this change is a typical case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. By combating pillar spam, all structures have just been made irrelevant in claimed areas on PvP servers as no matter what defences you build, if the enemy gets to control the claim flag, they can wipe everything you ever achieved in the game without a single gunshot.

Also, 12K gold is about a week's worth of upkeep for a 5 man company. It takes very little effort to obtain. A solo player farming common treasure maps makes about 1k gold an hour, and it just goes up from there. The money cost is far too low compared to the immense power it holds, as its by far the single strongest attack in the game. Renting a dragon costs 20k and its damage is negligible compared to this nuke.

I registered on this forum to make this single post, I am hoping it gets read by the relevant people even though I understand the chance for this is rather low.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Jozef said:

Can this be disabled for PvP too please?

With this change any company that has built on claimed land can potentially lose all they have ever built if they lose control of their claim flag. Offline raids are bad enough already, but at least currently it still takes some effort to wipe every single structure off an island. This nuke does not even require to demolish large buildings or even attack most outposts. You just need to capture the claim flag area - which is often itself not even defended, hold it for a few days, and anything that anyone has ever built on the island can be instanuked. This includes safe caches on mountaintops, secret stashes below the water line, all harbours, pens, stables, houses, farms, forts, turrets, buildings, paths, really everything. It has an enormous griefing potential and will be used in 9 out of 10 cases to wreck months of work instead of combating pillar spam. Any reasonable company will now relocate to lawless as with this change constant war is still safer than the risk of getting nuked - this single, small change is that bad.

I agree that overcoming pillar spam is important, but this change is a typical case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. By combating pillar spam, all structures have just been made irrelevant in claimed areas on PvP servers as no matter what defences you build, if the enemy gets to control the claim flag, they can wipe everything you ever achieved in the game without a single gunshot.

Also, 12K gold is about a week's worth of upkeep for a 5 man company. It takes very little effort to obtain. A solo player farming common treasure maps makes about 1k gold an hour, and it just goes up from there. The money cost is far too low compared to the immense power it holds, as its by far the single strongest attack in the game. Renting a dragon costs 20k and its damage is negligible compared to this nuke.

I registered on this forum to make this single post, I am hoping it gets read by the relevant people even though I understand the chance for this is rather low.

 

 Very good points. I will help you out a little to get closer attention since you are new here.

@Jatheish ☝️ This guy seems very concerned, gave pretty good points, and wanted to become part of the community. 

Edited by Realist
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1. Welcome to the forums.

2.  Your case is presented very well. I think you have a particularly strong point about the cost of renting a dragon vs the cost of this nuke being out of proportion to their relative power. I have not seen anyone bring it up. 

3. I second Realist that your post deserves some attention so I will help draw a crowd.

*juggles fruit*

 

 

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I think that in pvp the raze mechanic is just fine as it is. Make it more expensive if you want. Ill still use it. 

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37 minutes ago, Realist said:

 Very good points. I will help you out a little to get closer attention since you are new here.

@Jatheish ☝️ This guy seems very concerned, gave pretty good points, and wanted to become part of the community. 

 

32 minutes ago, boomervoncannon said:

1. Welcome to the forums.

2.  Your case is presented very well. I think you have a particularly strong point about the cost of renting a dragon vs the cost of this nuke being out of proportion to their relative power. I have not seen anyone bring it up. 

3. I second Realist that your post deserves some attention so I will help draw a crowd.

*juggles fruit*

 

 

And I don’t actually own the game yet because I am waiting for console release.

there you go boomer. Totally forgot since he was new he didn’t know me yet lol

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19 hours ago, [GP] Guybrush Threepwood said:

To help us understand this further, please explain your current situation in PvE.

Where do you live, are you owner, tenant, neither. What affect would people razing islands have on you personally. Please explain more so we can see your situation.

I am an island owner i have a company of about 20 people. I have claimed a island when they increased the base points from 30 to 70 i would have liked to have raised it as the previous owner dtill has a substantial base he renderers in but he doesn't seem to fo anything with. (No animals and never any tax coming in) this is space other settlers could use. I do also have multiple farming hubs on islands i do not own and yes they could be razed if someone claims or reclaimed the island. I am still not clear on whether or not a warning to remove your belongings would be given or if this also destroyed the person who claimed the islands structures. If this removed ALL structures it would greatly reduce the risk to many farming hubs since most people have substantial bases built, this coupled with the 25k cost would deter most. If a 48h warning was given before the raze took place all active people could remove all items and rss put them on an anchored boat the just rebuild what they needed. Sure it is an inconvenience but hardly a game breaker. The is far too many people rendering bases they don't use and this would have resolved that issue.

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16 minutes ago, seruum said:

I am still not clear on whether or not a warning to remove your belongings would be given or if this also destroyed the person who claimed the islands structures. If this removed ALL structures it would greatly reduce the risk to many farming hubs since most people have substantial bases built

No warning, only after the fact. The entire region gets a raze alert when it actually happens. ALL structures are razed even landlords.

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44 minutes ago, Nari said:

No warning, only after the fact. The entire region gets a raze alert when it actually happens. ALL structures are razed even landlords.

Yea that is a problem. I think there should have been a 2 day warning to remove you things.

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5 hours ago, Jatheish said:

We've gone ahead and will be disabling the option to raze islands on PvE. Structure spam is still an issue, and one we would like to resolve but we recognize the problems this causes on a PvE network, in particular to settlers who have been living under the guise that their bases would be safe following the initial structure-placement timer. We'll keep on reading your guys' feedback and consider ourselves more suitable ways to approach this.

This patch also introduces a change where island owners can place down more tax banks around their island, to help encourage other settlers who live there to contribute to the upkeep cost. 

There's a lot of fair and valid feedback here, but there are also some unnecessary remarks towards one another. Remember, it's okay to have a different opinion and share it folks, but keep things civil 😉

Thanks @Jatheish for reverting the change to the raze mechanic on PvE, and thank you to @Dollie for taking the time to listen to us and take notes from this discussion (I say discussion loosely because it did get unnecessarily heated at times).

I do apologise for my personal behaviour, and not making any excuses for it but I do love Atlas which is why i've dedicated as much time as I can over the last 4 months since wipe and would rather not lose all that progress due to another player in PvE.

8 hours ago, Martyn said:

The large amount who don't even play the game? Thier opinions, like yours, don't matter.

I'd also like to thank the Devs for not having the same attitude as this, which is one reason why things got so heated because the casual players of PvE, which lets face it is what it is often designed for constantly got told they don't have a right to comment. So i'm glad the majority in this debate were listened to.

As for the spam situation, I'm fully aware of the difficult situation it presents, and I'm hopeful that other less destructive solutions will come in the future.

Long Live PvE!🖖

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20 minutes ago, [GP] Guybrush Threepwood said:

Thanks @Jatheish for reverting the change to the raze mechanic on PvE, and thank you to @Dollie for taking the time to listen to us and take notes from this discussion (I say discussion loosely because it did get unnecessarily heated at times).

I do apologise for my personal behaviour, and not making any excuses for it but I do love Atlas which is why i've dedicated as much time as I can over the last 4 months since wipe and would rather not lose all that progress due to another player in PvE.

I'd also like to thank the Devs for not having the same attitude as this, which is one reason why things got so heated because the casual players of PvE, which lets face it is what it is often designed for constantly got told they don't have a right to comment. So i'm glad the majority in this debate were listened to.

As for the spam situation, I'm fully aware of the difficult situation it presents, and I'm hopeful that other less destructive solutions will come in the future.

Long Live PvE!🖖

You don't even play Atlas.. I do.

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Yeh thanks devs for taking our opinions seriously and changing the update idea for island wipe,I know a lot of people on pve will now feel a lot happier.thx again.

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7 hours ago, Jatheish said:

We've gone ahead and will be disabling the option to raze islands on PvE. Structure spam is still an issue, and one we would like to resolve but we recognize the problems this causes on a PvE network, in particular to settlers who have been living under the guise that their bases would be safe following the initial structure-placement timer. We'll keep on reading your guys' feedback and consider ourselves more suitable ways to approach this.

This patch also introduces a change where island owners can place down more tax banks around their island, to help encourage other settlers who live there to contribute to the upkeep cost. 

There's a lot of fair and valid feedback here, but there are also some unnecessary remarks towards one another. Remember, it's okay to have a different opinion and share it folks, but keep things civil 😉

Thanks Jat, like other have said, actualy more thank you posts i've never seen.

Pillar / foundation spam is a problem, and I would love to see a solution, I believe it's going to be a complicated solution, and as you can see people give feedback when they see a problem. I'm just sorry I can't suggest an easy solution.

I'd also like to thank Martyn, wether intentional or not, posts like that below clearly showing a willingness to seriously negatively impact other players on PVE. You showed the dev's what people could do with that system.

8 hours ago, Martyn said:

No.  It's my island.. not theirs.  Pvp is player v player killing.  No killing involved here.

It isn't a pvp attitude at all, it isn't even slightly or remotely pvp.  I have no issue with them living anywhere else.  Just not, on, my, island.

Personally I'd give them longer to leave.. say a week.. to move out.  Fair eviction for something they aren't and never have paid for.  Exploiters that they are.  Don't really deserve to be treated fairly tho.. maybe 3.5 days.

Other peoples buildings.. are spam.  pillers are spam, ceilings on pillers are spam.. any house I cannot use is spam. Pretty buildings on hills are spam.

If it doesn't serve a purpose.. it is spam.  If it isn't in my company, but is on my island.. it is spam.

Unless it's there by permission.

I personally think settlement owners should have the right to destroy all buildings, all of the time.  It is their island.  No ownership.. no rights, no opinion.

 

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8 hours ago, Jatheish said:

We've gone ahead and will be disabling the option to raze islands on PvE. Structure spam is still an issue, and one we would like to resolve but we recognize the problems this causes on a PvE network, in particular to settlers who have been living under the guise that their bases would be safe following the initial structure-placement timer. We'll keep on reading your guys' feedback and consider ourselves more suitable ways to approach this.

This patch also introduces a change where island owners can place down more tax banks around their island, to help encourage other settlers who live there to contribute to the upkeep cost. 

There's a lot of fair and valid feedback here, but there are also some unnecessary remarks towards one another. Remember, it's okay to have a different opinion and share it folks, but keep things civil 😉

about the structure spam on PVE, how about giving island owners the option to remove building parts one by one for a gold cost per part instead of a nuke. Maybe increase the cost depending on the size of the building the part is attached to and decrease the cost depending on how far the inactivity timer is advanced.

This way would allow island owners to remove foundation spam and pillar spam relatively easy, while not destroying other buildings in the progress and make it very costly to remove a base of an active player.

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So common sense prevails? Thank god for that. I think most of us knew it was the wrong move, slightly worrying the devs didn't think of it in the first place.

Can only thank them for taking notice and listening to our concerns over this, it was a very big concern. People can now live in peace.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jack Shandy said:

I'd also like to thank Martyn, wether intentional or not, posts like that below clearly showing a willingness to seriously negatively impact other players on PVE. You showed the dev's what people could do with that system.

Yeh I suppose if you twist anything around.. you can make it sound anyway you like.

47 minutes ago, DannyUK said:

So common sense prevails? Thank god for that. I think most of us knew it was the wrong move, slightly worrying the devs didn't think of it in the first place.

Can only thank them for taking notice and listening to our concerns over this, it was a very big concern. People can now live in peace.

Except for the island owners who do all the work.

1 hour ago, Linea said:

about the structure spam on PVE, how about giving island owners the option to remove building parts one by one for a gold cost per part instead of a nuke. Maybe increase the cost depending on the size of the building the part is attached to and decrease the cost depending on how far the inactivity timer is advanced.

This way would allow island owners to remove foundation spam and pillar spam relatively easy, while not destroying other buildings in the progress and make it very costly to remove a base of an active player.

Not acceptable.

A timer base instead.  Owner sets demo order, say 2-3 days hence or a week even.  If original owner doesn't log in and stop timer.  Pop goes the weasel. No more spam.  Add timer enable to log with a popup warning if player logs in.

You want to add more gold for us to grind out.. I'll be telling you where I'll be sticking my island.  Or better still.. disable protection for items already timed out..

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1804369383

Like this.. can't be demolished.. even tho it's supposed to have auto demo'd.

Edited by Martyn

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1 hour ago, Linea said:

about the structure spam on PVE, how about giving island owners the option to remove building parts one by one for a gold cost per part instead of a nuke. Maybe increase the cost depending on the size of the building the part is attached to and decrease the cost depending on how far the inactivity timer is advanced.

This way would allow island owners to remove foundation spam and pillar spam relatively easy, while not destroying other buildings in the progress and make it very costly to remove a base of an active player.

The quickest exploit here is that you only need to destroy one square to demolish the resource box a group has been using.  Then you can loot it.

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1 hour ago, Martyn said:

Yeh I suppose if you twist anything around.. you can make it sound anyway you like.

Except for the island owners who do all the work.

Not acceptable.

A timer base instead.  Owner sets demo order, say 2-3 days hence or a week even.  If original owner doesn't log in and stop timer.  Pop goes the weasel. No more spam.  Add timer enable to log with a popup warning if player logs in.

You want to add more gold for us to grind out.. I'll be telling you where I'll be sticking my island.  Or better still.. disable protection for items already timed out..

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1804369383

Like this.. can't be demolished.. even tho it's supposed to have auto demo'd. 

unknown.png

The information is out there!

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8 minutes ago, Kummba said:

unknown.png

The information is out there!

Yep, and all the casual players are even aware of this issue already too and know that it's a bug that Jat has explained the reason behind it. It's good to be casual! 👍

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1 hour ago, Martyn said:

Except for the island owners who do all the work.

Except this is factually incorrect and multiple posters have already pointed out to you that the owner is supported by taxes of both gold AND resources as compared to the rent the owner pays which is only in gold, a resource you have demonstrated you don’t place a high value with your Worth It? thread.

At this point you are just willfully denying reality and when that is pointed out to you, you concoct a further fantasy that I’m calling you a nazi when no such thing has occurred.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, boomervoncannon said:

Except this is factually incorrect and multiple posters have already pointed out to you that the owner is supported by taxes of both gold AND resources as compared to the rent the owner pays which is only in gold, a resource you have demonstrated you don’t place a high value with your Worth It? thread.

At this point you are just willfully denying reality and when that is pointed out to you, you concoct a further fantasy that I’m calling you a nazi when no such thing has occurred.

I'm not even sure what this "work" actually is?

I mean from my view an island owner:

a) Gets upto 20% FREE resources from anyone, settlers and visitors that farm on the island - no work required for land owner.

b) Gets upto 20% of FREE gold obtained from from treasure maps that anyone, settlers and visitors dig up, and they themselves lose that 20% gold as it is not additive like resources - no work required for land owner.

c) Have to pay gold upkeep for the land claim - well settlers and visitors support that by digging up treasure maps, also the land owner makes their own decision to claim an island and therefore accepts that responsibility.

d) Land owners have a responsibility, if they chose to do so, to monitor the island and clean up any mess or spam made with 24 hours of placement. Again, they chose this responsibility when they claim land and they do not have to carry out that activity unlike paying the claim flag it is not a necessity.

So really i'm struggling to see where land owners do all the work? 🤔

Edited by [GP] Guybrush Threepwood
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4 minutes ago, [GP] Guybrush Threepwood said:

So really i'm struggling to see where land owners do all the work? 🤔

He has to log in, walk over to a resource box, grab gold, and put it in the flag. It's very labor intensive.

15hrs a day apparently.

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55 minutes ago, Kummba said:

unknown.png

The information is out there!

Yeah but without you, reading twitter, reddit or discord... How should we know?

Informations like this needs to be placed on every platform especially on the official website.

If they aren't able to serve all platforms, maybe they should quit one or two of them to serve a better support to the players.

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2 minutes ago, Forb Hidden said:

Yeah but without you, reading twitter, reddit or discord... How should we know?

We asking for that for so long now.

If u want only one source, you need to go to discord, forums are outdated it seems.

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1 minute ago, Kummba said:

We asking for that for so long now.

If u want only one source, you need to go to discord, forums are outdated it seems.

yeah it seems so... But let us stop here. I started a thread for this theme. So there's no need to spam in a useless thread now 😜

 

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Thnaks to Jat and whoever else participated in rolling this back.

To fix the problem in a better way, it might halp to figure out what problem we're trying to solve.  Abandoned structures can be removed with decay, so we're obviously talking about structures someone is using.   It's hard for players to claim some of the existing islands because, while not already claimed, some of these islands are already built up with other people's bases, outposts, and whatnot.  On the other hand, there are some players who have been unable to claim an island due to company size , cost, lack of appropriately sized islands, who have taken the time to settle and build on other land.  It would be unfair on a pve server for someone to come along and wipe out months of their work, just because they can.

Maybe we can make a distinction between the case where it's someone's main settlement and people are active there, and random structures, like a bed someone just uses for their company to fast travel and gain DP, or a storage box or taming pen someone put up to temporarily gather mats or tames?  It seems like a difference in destroying a place that people "live" vs. destroying something they built far away as a convenience to themselves.

Maybe if there's a real working settlement happening on an unclaimed island, a number of people using it, taking up  all the best building spots , a potential buyer should just pass it up and look for another?

Maybe we should replace the raze mechanic with a Squatter's mechanic?  More than X buildings of X size, and more than X consecutive days of (rendering) occupation, and nobody can remove your stuff?

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