Jump to content

  • 5
Sklex

Atlas needs less Ark and more Eve

Question

The more I play this game the more the problems with its design become obvious. It's got huge potential but I can't help but feel that they need to make some massive changes in order to correct its path. The Devs announced at the start that they were taking massive inspiration from Eve. Given Eve's massive success it's a logical choice to look at for ideas on how to make this type of game work. Eve is effectively a game about space ships (ships) moving between planets (islands) with everyone harvesting resources to create everything that exists in game. With that in mind...

There's a significant different between Atlas and Ark currently from a game design perspective. That is the existence of High Sev vs Null Sec and the existence of very mature player trade. High Sec being the area where approximately 70% of the players live and play. High Sec is safer, CONCORD (the police) rule the area and maintain law. Anyone breaking that law is swiftly dealt with (the police spawn in and blow you to pieces), it is possible however to break the law should you choose (incredibly difficult to do this successfully, near on impossible). The further you go from the safety of Concord the more dangerous and lawless the area becomes. 

I think it's the Atlas version of CONCORD that's missing. There should not be PVE and PVP servers. Just servers local to your region. It needs an AI controlled Governing force that maintains ownership of primary squares. Those squares become PVE squares. There should be enough to provide adequate space for the PvErs. They should absolutely have Trade Houses that are run by the game. Players should be able to place Buy and Sell orders in the Trade Houses knowing that they are in a relatively safe place. Those places should act as players hubs. Allow companies to have Company Offices if they are acting as trade merchants. Allow the bounties to be placed from these hubs. Ships should be able to be docked in relative safety in these locations with the understanding that they are under the protection of the local government. 

The PVE players can live safely within the governed regions. The PVP players can try and sneak into those regions and cause chaos if they like, with the knowledge that the AI controlled Government will come down on them swiftly.

To make this work you need to create a reason to go out into Null Sec (pretty much all of Atlas is currently Null Sec). Define the resource availability in a way that there is reward for stepping out into the risky waters. Allow the'Pirates' to create their own Trade Hubs. This will encourage players to try and sail to these locations to fulfil trade orders. This gets the trade working. Prices need to be defined by the market. Not by the game. We need the market to fluctuate as this will encourage people becoming traders. Buying low and selling high from one port to the other. 

The Null Sec areas become serious business. Political borders start to form between some of the largest most feared companies. They may allow smaller companies to operate within their borders as alliances form. Eventually things will no doubt get very interesting. 

This would be a much better game experience for new players. They can begin the game in relative safety and as they grow more confident in their ability they can set forth into more dangerous waters to seek out glory and fame. If they fail, they can retreat, if they succeed they may very well end up dominating new lands. ,

This will encourage more mature meta-game. It will encourage better PVP. It will create a better community. 

  • Like 20

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Recommended Posts

  • 1
On 1/8/2019 at 2:04 PM, Grodgen said:

God, I played EvE for around a decade.

Agree with all your points Grodgen. All things I've been thinking are missing. This all comes down to core game design. They need to think bigger where right now it feels like they think they have succeeded due to linking a heap of individual Ark servers together. It's a feat... but this game can be something incredible with a defined long term plan. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1

Very thought out post, well said. It is my hope the Devs see your post!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1
21 hours ago, Aztek said:

Yes, currently no real MMO game.  Just survival.   

not even that. is a griefer - zerg-tribe "semi-pvp" offline raiding wets dream.

no game mechanic thats in it - right now that is - being it freeports - lawless - whatever the rest is has any risk & reward thought or even level and difficulty-scaling in it whatsoveer. 
you can engage a lvl 200 alpha on any island. its purely random. which is dum in terms of player progression and engagement. 

the claim system is a hot mess. unlimited claims that cost nothing to setup or maintain and only takes "being there" to make them safe. (at least in theory). thats even bad for a pvp server, let alone a pve server. 

the latest installment of ressource spawn prevention (bug ? intentional? ) is bad for a game based on ressources to do even the most basic shit.

insane amount of dead travel-times which just act as major timesink and offer not even the slightes value for any player doing it. flotsam might be fun, but once you realize it is very tedious and never really worth it, you just ignore it most of the time (blueprints from flotsam are building only and rarely ever worth to actually build)

its supposed to be a pvp game, yet the "mot effective" pvp tactic in the game seems to be either low tier weapons (bows + flame arrows) or simply griefing the shit out of others. (weight griefing, which as to be the biggerst oversight ever).

 a tacked on "eating- and nutrition"- mechanic that is more hassle than benefit. its simply more efficient to just die and respawn as the burden to be able to constantly level everything out is not worth the actual benefits

the total reset when you die. its not about loss - in eve you also lose a lot - but if you play smart, you never lose everything. in atlas- as of now, there are simply situations from which you are basically reset to zero.  

company mechanics that are not thought through,. as well as alliance-mechanics that are visual in nature only and offer no real strategic or gameplay value. 

the list could go on. 

but its obvious that there never really was a real long-term vision behind it , except "lets make a game with soo many players on it at the same time and lets make it pirate-themed because we were working on that dlc anyways...."

 

they would have to go back to the drawing board, not being afraid to wipe repeatedly in the process, no matter what the outcome per wipe is. 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1

I am so glad that someone has finally mentioned EvE here...

I was a merrcenary on EvE, I seen this as ADVERTISED as a competitor to EvE with fancy videos - I bought it hoping that at least THE BASICS OF AN ECONOMY were here, Yet there is zero... How can I be a Mercenary as mentioned in advertisements, here on Atlas, when there is no incentive for anyone to pay you anything... The only thing that was right in the advertisements were the possibilities being endless... The thing that wasn't mentioned is if the devs will listen?

An Economy to make any PVP functionality actually work should be mandatory in any MMO - There will always be griefers, there will always be a way to grieve, but it isnt so bad if there are actual tangible things in place to distract people, an ECONOMY being one of them...

The different types of resources is a great idea, there needs to be different types of ships too, and tiers too - Variety is key here...

There is so many possibilities, but if this game doesnt grasp them, then it is already dead, as it stands, Survival is broken - you end up grinding to stay alive rather than playing the game - Great idea, doesn't really work here...

Trade hubs, definatly need them, Combining of servers PVE/PVP needs to be done, The OP put a great way this can work in - We need towns, where are they? - Players can build them, but there is no incentive... There is no reason really for people to go from server to server except to shoot others, which is only really done by the no lifers at stupid o clock...

Not moaning, but I came here because of how it was advertised, I like the ggame but the functionality is nothing like it was advertised and at most lacks basic PvP elements needed

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1

what if you took the pve server and broke it into eight sections. create rules to keep people peaceful withn them. Now you pick 8 areas on the PVP server where when you cross a zone line you go from the pvp server and into one of the 8 pve areas. This way you use both servers clusters but in a way where character can travel between them from pvp to pve areas. to go from one pve area to another you have to cross pvp areas. Crude in concept but you get the idea.

 

in effect, you just doubled the size of the world.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1

received_2222862071107496.pngThere are servers starting to do this btw. Not at the depth I would like to see where resources are limited to specific zones. We do currently have a place to call home where we can play without fear of wipe and the go sailing on a Friday night and try find some pvp. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

+1 I would really like to see them do more with the NPC's in this game. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

As a former EVE player, I wholly agree with you in part! I think that's a fantastic vision for the PvP cluster.

As a career-carebear, I don't like conflict with other players, period. I love minecraft, Age of Umpires and games like Ark on private PvE servers. I'm happy to shell out my money for games like that. The 1.0 game gets dull pretty quickly; There's only so much fun to be had running missions and mining kernite. I'd still like to have fun with more difficult content but I have no desire at all to fight other people.

I think your vision is quite compatible with PVE; just need to prevent player combat and remove the opportunities for griefing (which I feel should also be removed on PvP servers because griefing is a shitty substitute for PvP.) I think resource scarcity and an open market would still generate a rich and vibrant dynamic. I just wouldn't have to spend my play time constantly in fear of losing all my stuff because some punk in his mother's basement is jacking off while suiciding his drone-domi on my hauler in 0.7.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

God, I played EvE for around a decade.

What needs to change is the economy ( or lack there of ) in this game. It NEEDS an economy set in the background for players to play with. Baseline prices were already in place and the player driven economy was something that was slowly allowed to grow over years and when it was apparently that CCP had created a living economy they basically let go of the leash and let it do it's thing. Just to clarify, it was never made by the players, it existed and the players created something around that. If Grapeshot wants that... it first needs to MAKE an economy, which it doesn't have. It doesn't even have towns yet. This economy point I made needs to be addressed first or this game will never be like EvE to begin with.

On a second note, your idea about Highsec -> Null sec is actually pretty well thought out. The only thing it's missing is resources having special qualities, which would make sense for a game about wooden ships. Different kinds of timber should have qualities that effect health, speed, damage reduction, etc. Different kinds of metals should have qualities that effect ships and guns and cannons, etc. That creates even more incentive for players to go to these null sec regions. In EvE, I go to null for special mining materials, T2 materials, T3 materials, the vast amount of unique gear that drops from rats, gas mining, the list goes on.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/8hvucr/why_are_ships_so_expensive_now_they_objectively/

This article also helps a bit with understanding how the economy works in EvE. It's a large complex mess, but it works. And for me, that's the first issue that need to be addressed, before sectors are made. What's cheap, what's hard to get, THEN where do I find it. In that order.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Yes, currently no real MMO game.  Just survival.   

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Very well said OP, totally agree. 
I got this game when hearing it may be EVE like, at the moment its far from it, but there's still hope.
Let's see it be less like Ark and #MoreLikeEVE .

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
On 1/9/2019 at 7:03 PM, Aztek said:

Yes, currently no real MMO game.  Just survival.   

Survival? Where. No need to eat. No need to drink. No need for meds.... Just suicide and reboot your health bar.

 

*****

 

The EvE concept adapt to Atlas was bring me here. Huge turn down by now. But what it's worst, none of that ideas Will come ever. 

If you rrad the fórums, almost everyone ask for less and less complexity. No need to understad the wind yo sail. No need to farm. Faster builds. Infinite respec. Everything cheaper. Being able to tame with any food. Etc.

This game is flooded with casual. And for not ley them leave, devs make the game more and more childish.

Thing is, casuals Will leave after a time anyway, and the rest of us who came for and insane Survivalcraft CooP MMO, Will be stuck to a babykid game.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Well, you want to create a second eve. I am not speaking for or against this idea, but it’s definitely not worth doing in the same way as there.

I think now there are increased rates, so that players can develop faster, test mechanics faster. With the release, the rates will be 5 times lower, and rightly so. If you wake high lvl, with top weapons, what else will attract you in this game?

I really hope that the developers will make the right decision.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
9 hours ago, Fractal Shard said:

I personally really don't care for eves system. Honestly eves systems should stay in eve.

If a game have more players online after 15 year than the new ones... Then something they are doing right.

I still play EvE everyday. Atlas player database base looks too casual for something bigger than Ark. What a pity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
1 minute ago, Manaos said:

If a game have more players online after 15 year than the new ones... Then something they are doing right.

I still play EvE everyday. Atlas player database base looks too casual for something bigger than Ark. What a pity.

It's just personal preference for me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Don't want PvE to be merged with PvP. Wanted to be mechant in pvp zone at first which this would theoreticaly allow it but then propably all resources that ppl only care about are in pvp zones (makes sense tho) and would not have what they want. Would prefer to just get all content without being border camped or just under the stress of some zerg comming by with their galleon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
2 minutes ago, Nightstrasza said:

Don't want PvE to be merged with PvP. Wanted to be mechant in pvp zone at first which this would theoreticaly allow it but then propably all resources that ppl only care about are in pvp zones (makes sense tho) and would not have what they want. Would prefer to just get all content without being border camped or just under the stress of some zerg comming by with their galleon.

Well. What that is cool too. If you are a merchant, that bring resourses from very dangerous places to the guys in safe zone, you Made a living out of that.

In EvE, there are corporativo that do the transport thing only has a way to earn their money. They learn routes, scout it, fit their ships for it, etc.

Counterpart. Being someone looking gor traders and rob them... Like... En... A pirate? XD.

This game has the potencial to be the evolution of EvE and games like Ark o LiF. They are losing that opportunity by making everything súper casual, easy, plain and simple, as could. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

i seriously dont get why complexity is put on the same page as , for example, harvest rates. 
the game can be super complex, yet not too grindy to play. 

its all a level of risk vs reward. 

if you want the best loot ? go to the most dangerous places. which , right now, is everywhere and it does not scale at all. 
there is no natural order of progression in the game. you are stuck on lvl 1-8, then get thrown to the wolves,. literally as you will not be able to defeat a lvl 3 wolf if it hits your first, you have no high ground and no water to get it swimming. 

also, a lvl 36 wolf might be right next to a lvl 1 snake. how is that a natural progression ? if you are lvl 10, you are cannonfodder for every mob out there, except the slow ones. 

and you keep being cannonfodder, except the ones you can kite or can shoot from away or above. 

a lvl 40 char with the right weapon is as danerous in battle as a lvl 10 with a flame arrow. 

sharks in lawless are as deadly as they are in the middle of the map. 

it all makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

trading is not needet at all as there is no incentive of foing it. politics instead of all out warfare will probably never establish because there is no incentive in doing so... 

griefing is more efficient than real pvp and battles. 

 

if it continues like this, the servers will consolidate more and more until theres only two mega tribes left (or alliances) that meet in the middle and battle it out, OR do offline raids as in ark

whoever thinks that grinding days for a schooner is fun gameplay needs to wake up. only because somelarge companies can do it and others cannot does not make the game harcode. dieing evere 5 minutes to restart from scratch s not harcore. it is bad game design. 

 

any MMO should not be played because you get "the best loot.. highest weapons" but because the content the sandboix allow you to create. I havent met so many players in atlas yet that really want to create content. most just want to see the world burn. 
 

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

And they're making it even easier.  Prior to 10 I was thinking I'd have to make several trips to get the resources I need to tame the animals on my island. Now? Berries is all I need.  Seems to work for most anything except the wolves and I just kill a few of them to get the bones I need to tame them with.

As for comparisons to EVE:

In EVE, I was a huge trader dealing mostly in buying mission drops cheaply and then recycling them into minerals. 
In Atlas, tossing shit on the ground and hoping the other guy you're dealing with does the same is not an economy.

In EVE, I could always get in a mining barge, run out to belt in high sec and make a few coins if I needed and easily deal with the rats that spawned.
In Atlas, I can't even leave my house to chop down a tree because of the 5 wolves and 3 alpha vultures circling overhead. I still have not fully explored the island where my claim is.

In EVE, I could always hop in a freighter and, with relative safety, run to a trading hub and make a few coins selling my excess on the market.
In Atlas, my sloop hasn't lifted anchor in days because of the constant threat of SotD.  Seeing a video of a galleon chewed to bits by a green SotD with bugged guns convinced me this has been a good decision.

In EVE there is hundreds and hundreds of zones to explore that easily supported a population of 50,000+. You could even find zones that no one had been in in days.
In Atlas, you open your back door to take a piss and you're likely pissing on someone else's house.

I played EVE for around 13 years before I finally got bored of it and was happy to pay them the monthly fees till I did. Even then I knew there was so much that I had no knowledge of.
In Atlas, I feel like I've already discovered most of what it has to offer and I've barely left my island.

EVE? Atlas? No. There is no comparison.

Can I hope there will be?  Oh yes.  Oh yes.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
3 minutes ago, Jean Lafitte said:

And they're making it even easier.  Prior to 10 I was thinking I'd have to make several trips to get the resources I need to tame the animals on my island. Now? Berries is all I need.  Seems to work for most anything except the wolves and I just kill a few of them to get the bones I need to tame them with.

As for comparisons to EVE:

In EVE, I was a huge trader dealing mostly in buying mission drops cheaply and then recycling them into minerals. 
In Atlas, tossing shit on the ground and hoping the other guy you're dealing with does the same is not an economy.

In EVE, I could always get in a mining barge, run out to belt in high sec and make a few coins if I needed and easily deal with the rats that spawned.
In Atlas, I can't even leave my house to chop down a tree because of the 5 wolves and 3 alpha vultures circling overhead. I still have not fully explored the island where my claim is.

In EVE, I could always hop in a freighter and, with relative safety, run to a trading hub and make a few coins selling my excess on the market.
In Atlas, my sloop hasn't lifted anchor in days because of the constant threat of SotD.  Seeing a video of a galleon chewed to bits by a green SotD with bugged guns convinced me this has been a good decision.

In EVE there is hundreds and hundreds of zones to explore that easily supported a population of 50,000+. You could even find zones that no one had been in in days.
In Atlas, you open your back door to take a piss and you're likely pissing on someone else's house.

I played EVE for around 13 years before I finally got bored of it and was happy to pay them the monthly fees till I did. Even then I knew there was so much that I had no knowledge of.
In Atlas, I feel like I've already discovered most of what it has to offer and I've barely left my island.

EVE? Atlas? No. There is no comparison.

Can I hope there will be?  Oh yes.  Oh yes.

 

Tbh..., those are good points even tho don't like EVE for it having a reputation of a second job.

Yes, the trading system is just drop stuff..., on't trade with ppl that don't know for now.

Yes..., here didn't explore any further than the shore, once went in, ended up with a pack of wolves, then seagulls + vultures (bcs hit by mistake a seagull while killing vultures), it took half hour to get stuff back with alpha wolf camping the body. The only exploration that did later was suicide naked rush before freezing/being ripped apart an did not get much further than the mountain behind our house.

The SoDs rapid fire bug was fixed, yesterday was bombarded by yellow SoD, did not anihilate us. However, they still camp borders (that's why it agroed, never getting that close to one on purpose or greed, we just simply teleported on top of it), they still spawn in swarms creating artificial walls and don't serve any purpose other than wasting time going arroun them since they dont give anything special compared to resources and risk needed to take them down.

In atlas, well, every island is almost similar in resources except climate and few missing things, like no iron or gems or something and different types of animal spam so yeah.., unles going to power stone islands, then propably seen almost everything this game has to offer which is wolf tower defense. As for overcrowding..., yeah, on our island there's 5-20 players only at once online, traveled to warmer climates, especialy lawless and there's so many ppl their shipyards are all next to eachother, can't even dock to the shore in some places. Also the 150 player limit which causes fire wall to show up which destroys someone hard work for free, it can turn on at any moment bcs we can't tell if the server we are going in have 1 player or 149 of them. There's also oversubscribing which kicks players out of the grid, randomly, so someone defending from invasion can just get kicked out of their base and be unable to fight back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

We dont need Ark or Eve in this game, Ark was a nice game if played modded. Eve was just an afwul grindy game, a very typical no life game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
6 hours ago, Manaos said:

Survival? Where. No need to eat. No need to drink. No need for meds.... Just suicide and reboot your health bar.

 

*****

Death should be punished in some way. For example getting older or loosing XP progress. Then the vitals makes more sense.

 

I like the idea making different zones. I would divide them in 3 zones:

1. The PVE clusters should have enough land for everybody to build common structures, ships and equipment.
The spot you can claim depends how big is your company. Only 1 spot is allowed.
The PVE zones should be controlled by the royal navy (NPC Ships) (similar to the concord in EVE).
Which means you can attack other players but you must carry the consequences, so you get hunted and can be killed by everybody. 
Of course there should be some common treasures and flotsam, too. In the middle of the mainland there is marketplace where you can trade everything.
less dangerous creatures and no Alphas (Eve High-Sec ;))

2. Outside PVE Zone is the PVP Zone (pirate rules), there should be valuable treasures and materials which you cannot find in PVE zones.
These Materials are needed to build better ship-parts and advanced equipment.
You can claim land and make your rules, taxes etc. If you build there you can always harvest rare materials and trade them or use it yourself.
More dangerous creatures and Alphas are rare(Eve Low-Sec ;))

3. Beyond the PVP Zones there should be the Zone of the damned. Very dangerous but with very big treasures and maybe the fountain of Youth.
Some Alphas and other monsters (Eve Null-Sec or wormhole ;))

 

So if you seek adventure you have to go to the PVP Zones and beyond. If you need to be guarded you can stay or fallback to the PVE-Zones.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×