boomervoncannon

There are differences between what Eve does and what Atlas was looking to do, but the core idea for the purposes of our discussion was not having a central AH so that physically trading goods across the grid became part of developing the game's economy by stimulating trade routes and trading relationships between companies and even individuals. This idea still has merit and could still be developed, and just because things are going wrong now does not mean I'm going to support putting in an AH, because at that point I could just go play one of many other MMO's that have an AH and are otherwise better. The craptacular player shops are clearly not the future because they met immediate resistance from the playerbase and have already been altered. There is still a long long road of development ahead. If Atlas never makes it, so be it, I'll move on, but I'm not going to support turning Atlas into what every other MMO already has just to keep it alive. Because at that point it would just be a crappier version of already existing games.

*waits patiently for those screenshots of giant pink dildo sails, because that would be amazing.*

I'm not inherently against auction houses. I use them enthusiastically in other MMO's and love them. I'm against an auction house for Atlas because it would undermine the kind of trade environment they stated they were aiming to create, and one that I think if properly developed could be unique and engaging. So far properly developed hasn't been seen or heard from, so I'm dubious we'll get there any time soon if ever, but that is the reason for my being against AH for Atlas. Do not by any stretch of the imagination judge Eve by Atlas. If you're not familiar with Eve, the short version is that it has by far the most complex and sophisticated game economy of any MMO out there. It is the only game which has a full time economist on staff. If you are talking about gaming economies, there is Eve, and then there is everything else. I think Grapeshot aspired to at least some of what Eve does without really understanding it or having any clear idea of how to go about creating their version of it. But dismissing something just because you're ignorant of it doesn't advance your argument, it just shows it's limitations.

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying so I'll clarify. Because WOW was successful to a rediculous degree, it makes a poor measuring stick for everything else in the same way that you don't want to measure every basketball player against Jordan. Almost everyone will look woefully inadequete by comparison. Atlas is fairly obviously a dumpster fire at this point but saying it needs to live up to WOW in order to survive is an impossibly tall order. Let's try saying instead that it should refocus on trying to be more like the MMO it's creators said they set out to pattern it on, and be more like EVE. Eve has taken very tangible, very deliberate steps to create the long term successful game world and play environment that has evolved there. Grapeshot at this point feels scattershot and unfocused. They seem to be groping for who and what they want Atlas to be, and part of their failure to date is that the game has no clear identity to hang it's hat on that sets it apart from others. WOW's success was built on the existing success of a mammoth franchise that gave it a built in audience. It leveraged that to appeal to the broadest possible audience and succeeded brilliantly by drawing people into the MMO genre who would not otherwise have tried the genre. That success cannot be replicated. Grapeshot has neither the resources nor positioning to do so, and realistically neither does anyone else that I'm aware of.

And I still say auction house would be fundamentally contrary to the whole idea of what they've stated they want this game to be, and as such contrary to one of the main reasons it drew my interest in the first place. Also since we're talking about wow, measuring everything against wow in the MMO space is a bit like measuring every basketball player from middle school on against Michael Jordan (LeBron is a nice guy but before you try to have a GOAT conversation and use his name, realize you're going to lose and lose hard and fast just on ring count alone. Kobe fans can bite me. The only other player who can put forth a meaningful case is Bill Russell.) WOW was the outlier that destroyed the curve. Part of it's success was it obtained a level of momentum that became self perpetuating because player populations matter in an MMO, and WOW had by far the biggest. People played WOW in no small part because they knew there would always be lots of other people playing WOW. Using WOW as a yardstick quickly becomes meaningless because of how it left everything else in the dust. It's an outlier, and outliers often make poor tools for measuring. If every kid's jumper that isn't as good as Jordan's isn't a good basketball player, then every kid isn't a good basketball player. Nothing measures up and comparison becomes effectively meaningless.

This. The arrogance of the OP's attitude in his suggestion is so ingrained in his thinking that he doesn't even recognize it and acts surprised when others take a dim view of being treated as set pieces there for his amusement regardless of their own preferences.

If you do this I demand entreat, beg, cajole, request, implore, pester and otherwise ask you to post screenies. This is, by a wide margin, the best idea in this thread.

Again, your idea is bad. Just plain bad. Laughably bad. The fact that the tally of commenters for and against your proposal is 0 to double digits and counting speaks volumes. The idea has no merit whatsoever to any pve player and the criticism you’re getting for suggesting something so blatantly suited only to your own desires at the expense of others is well deserved. Can’t handle the fact people don’t like your idea and are telling you so without sugar coating it? Not my problem. I haven’t noticed anyone insulting you personally, just criticizing your idea. The things said here are far milder than the way pvpers as a group routinely speak about and to pve players, so until you start regulating on the behavior of your own, your cries of poor treatment are going to fall on deaf ears. Suck it up buttercup.

Oh please. Get out of here with that stuff. As I’ve already said I’ve had to listen to pvp players repeatedly talk down to and disrespect not just specific pve players they disagreed with, but ALL pve players as a group for 15 years ad naseum. Please link me to any post you’ve ever made taking your fellow pvpers to task for this behavior, yet here you are talking of speaking civilly when your grand idea of taking all pve players and involuntarily stuffing them into a much smaller play area surrounded by oh look! A much bigger portion of the map for you and your pvp ilk is met with the sharp criticism and derision it so richly deserves. Now who is the snowflake? GTFO with that nonsense.

Oh. No. What. a. surprise.

Player vs Aardvarks? Please tell me this is a thing and how I can sign up.

Oh yeah...I almost forgot about that polar dungeon thingy. Seems like ages since we’ve heard any mention of it.... Also have you tried nail polish remover on that face?

So just for the devs benefit when they look at the thread: Number of posters so far who like the Op’s suggestion: 0 Number of posters who think a brain dead lemur on crack would know better than to actually implement such a one sided pve unfriendly scheme: 10

Foolish mortal. Do not ever believe Grapeshot time estimates. The last update which was released in April was originally called the February mega update. So the recent track record would suggest ad 2 months to the originally announced release timeframe. Until they demonstrate otherwise, this is the prudent approach.

There is no perfect answer that I’m aware of. All I can tell you is that the problem you describe is the problem of single individuals who made a choice of their own free will and were aware beforehand of the consequences of merging into a guild. The difficulties presented by the free rider problem affect not just individuals but whole organizations, are less obvious on the front end, and in my experience often lead to the breakup of whole guilds and encourage behavior that is not socially healthy or productive.

This. For 15 years I have listened to a certain kind of pvp player endlessly deride, insult, abuse, talk down to and dismiss pve players in chest thumping excesses of thinly disguised gamer snobbery (and make no mistake snobbery is exactly what it is because when you peel all the bs away what is left is a core attitude of “I am better than you because of the way I choose to play.”) The irony of this epeen bravado is that all available empirical data suggests strongly that without pve players to support the MMO’s these coxcombs are playing, the games would soon fold. Let me provide for you a list of all the long term successful games that can reasonably be considered of the same genre as Atlas in which pvp players do not represent a minority of the playerbase: Eve. And that’s it.

Umm, exercise a little common sense. Pve players will stay in the pve area. PvP players will overwhelmingly stay in the pvp area in order to pvp. Thus while you SAY pve players will have more players to play with, the obvious and predictable outcome would be each group mostly sticking to their designated areas, resulting in a massive loss of effective game space for pve players in exchange for no meaningful benefit they want. Try again, your suggestion has zero merit for pve.

No one is proposing communism, utopian or otherwise. Note that you are the one using that term, and I do not consider it a useful term in describing the problem I’m referring to, which is a common problem not limited to gaming called the free rider problem. As Lotus has already addressed, the issue is one of people who give lip service to being part of a company, guild, etc. when what they are really looking for is a free ride. I have encountered this mentality enough times across enough games to be reasonably certain it would become an issue here. In a nutshell it is the problem of people who want all of the benefits of belonging to a guild and have access to guild resources while still designating things they want to consider personal and private “off limits” to others, even supposed guild mates. I have seen this behavior manifest itself repeatedly in otherwise reasonable players, who even use “guild” mats and resources to make or build ships, gear etc that they then want to consider private and earmarked for their personal use only. This inevitably leads to resentment from guild mates who have both equally selfish and less selfish approaches. As previously stated, I have seen this approach, initiated in good faith by well intentioned leaders including myself, lead time and time again to more headache and drama than otherwise found in a given group.

What’s a tree lawn and why is it strewn with old dressers?

So your suggestion is that for sake of increasing overall player count on a grid, you want to force pve players into a choice between participating in a play style they have declined prior OR stay within a small portion of the entire map? And pay folks to obtain things for them outside of this zone? I have one question about your proposal: Whats in this for pve players? Because as you’ve described it, it looks like the answer is nothing.

*hides all of Woulfe's map markers under the sofa* Nope. No problems at all, why?

So that everyone can bask in the warm glow of my brilliance, obviously. Duh.

The inability to unclaim or gift ships seems problematic, but I can tell you with strong certainty what will happen if a "more robust" system of ownership were introduced that allowed members of companies to personally own things and limit even company members access to them. It will lead in short order to a mindset of nearly everything being personally owned and people thinking even within a company of "mine" and "yours". In the long term, this will hinder company development and cohesiveness more than help. Solo players will always want to play solo and can do so, but more private and personalized ownership of property by individuals within guilds tends to create more drama than it mitigates. I say this based on 15 years of MMO play in guilds that had both types of systems in place.

*Takes her and trades her at market for a rhino, two ostriches and a crow, plus a third baseman to be named later or possibly a shortstop.*

As admin, you are in a position to dictate terms to him, rather than the other way around. You don't have to be a jerk about it (I can already gather from your posts that you wouldn't be), but make clear to him that you have decided what you are willing to do to accomodate his exit and that the matter is not up for debate. People like the sort of person you're describing aren't the sort that if you do what they want everything ends up fine. Be firm and understand you're never going to be able to control whether he chooses to badmouth you to others and unless he gets everything he wants, which won't be reasonable, this is likely going to happen anyway. So draw your line in the sand and let him deal with it. Unknown's analogy to temper tantruming children is apt, treat the situation with that mindset and gl.