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Hector of Troy

PvE is the better version of the game

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At least right now having played both PvP and PvE servers with about 200 hours in.

The ability to build up communities around strangers is accomplished more readily with PvE with the current tools available in the game. The MMO portion of this Survival Pirate MMO needs that playing field of engaging people in some meaningful ways that cannot be done if people cannot in some levels "trust" each other. In PvE, what someone can do to you is somewhat limited (although not completely safe) and that gives a minimum benchmark of trust that allows interactions not common in PvP.

Maybe this has something to do with how the current claim system works on both PvP and PvE. The system is flawed for the concept of the genre due to their being no safe ports for ships, it forces players into the circumference of islands to make their own protected ports. This is a physically limited real estate thats needed to play the game. The claim system encourages companies and individuals to buy up all that space asap. At least on PvE, you can get away with limited protection and space in order to protect your ship, thus adding to the experience of being on the main draw of the content, the Ocean. 

Both PvE and PvP claim systems need to be reexamined in how what they were intended to do versus how they are being used in the game. In the trailer we see communities of people going about their business in player made towns. That certainly sounds good, but in practice the claim system does not encourage that behavior.

 

If a system can be put into place to allow players to make claims where they must be contested at the point where the flag is planted, rather than a new claim automatically contesting the area if a flag is planted anywhere within it, gives far more breathing room in PvP to establish yourself without the need of claiming an entire island or coast line. Additionally, if NPCs can be set on patrol or guard duty within a territory with conditional parameters players can create essentially a law enforcement system within their claim that is automated. Allowing for the creation of player made towns. It would also help if there was a way to create a port in which the NPC merchants would come to dock. And have a system where players can compete in trading goods between these ports. Putting more merchants, both NPC and Players on the ocean, which in PvP is more potential content. Having the ebb and flow of commerce with an enphasis on city building rather than physical space control would improve the experience of PvP and PvE. 

But as of right now, PvE is in the better state between the two modes of the game it seems.  

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Really? I'm playing PvP and most people that have been complaining over the last week are from PvE..

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1 hour ago, Percieval said:

Really? I'm playing PvP and most people that have been complaining over the last week are from PvE..

Well the problem with PvE is that it has too much PvP right now.

The reason people play PvE is so they don't have to deal with other players destroying this stuff or stealing from them, yet that's been quite possible. They finally fixed the lack of locks on containers however its still possible to sink other players ships in PvE, which is hilariously messed up. PvP just has the usual issues with PvP in a survival game, so you know what to expect going in.  

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The way the PVP is, its not fun, they need to put a way to secure construction, actually they should put some island PVP and others PVE, that way you have space to build you safe base and still will wanto to fight for some resource in the PVP island.

Other way is to implement time for war, like: declare war, in 10 hours a war will begin and will have 5 hours with damage PVP on.

At least they should implement more NPCs for PVE, Pirate Ships to aboard, merchant to steal from and a Marine to run.

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3 hours ago, Percieval said:

Really? I'm playing PvP and most people that have been complaining over the last week are from PvE..

I think most of the PvE complaints have been centered on the lite PvP elements they don't like. As an avid PvPer it seems like common sense to protect your stuff. There game needs to strike a balance between pve and pvp elements I think on one mega server while using the resources of both to increase player caps while limiting how much coastal real estate is claimable.

I think there could be lessons learned from an EvE online approach of having non pvp sectors, lite pvp, and full on pvp. This would allow for a lot more interactions in non pvp areas while encouraging traditional pve players to venture into pvp areas to get some sort of resource, a trade route, or treasure.

Also when it comes to shipbuilding, due to size of shipyards, I think NPC controlled shipyards that you pay a time frame for use would be useful. It keeps random shipyard spam down and frees up coast lines while adding to the list of things you can spend gold on.

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2 hours ago, JackViajante said:

The way the PVP is, its not fun, they need to put a way to secure construction, actually they should put some island PVP and others PVE, that way you have space to build you safe base and still will wanto to fight for some resource in the PVP island.

Other way is to implement time for war, like: declare war, in 10 hours a war will begin and will have 5 hours with damage PVP on.

At least they should implement more NPCs for PVE, Pirate Ships to aboard, merchant to steal from and a Marine to run.

Something needs to be changed up thats for sure in order to get the balance needed for it to be both a fun pirate MMO and a fun survivor game

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Hector of Troy said:

At least right now having played both PvP and PvE servers with about 200 hours in.

The ability to build up communities around strangers is accomplished more readily with PvE with the current tools available in the game. The MMO portion of this Survival Pirate MMO needs that playing field of engaging people in some meaningful ways that cannot be done if people cannot in some levels "trust" each other. In PvE, what someone can do to you is somewhat limited (although not completely safe) and that gives a minimum benchmark of trust that allows interactions not common in PvP.

Maybe this has something to do with how the current claim system works on both PvP and PvE. The system is flawed for the concept of the genre due to their being no safe ports for ships, it forces players into the circumference of islands to make their own protected ports. This is a physically limited real estate thats needed to play the game. The claim system encourages companies and individuals to buy up all that space asap. At least on PvE, you can get away with limited protection and space in order to protect your ship, thus adding to the experience of being on the main draw of the content, the Ocean. 

Both PvE and PvP claim systems need to be reexamined in how what they were intended to do versus how they are being used in the game. In the trailer we see communities of people going about their business in player made towns. That certainly sounds good, but in practice the claim system does not encourage that behavior.

 

If a system can be put into place to allow players to make claims where they must be contested at the point where the flag is planted, rather than a new claim automatically contesting the area if a flag is planted anywhere within it, gives far more breathing room in PvP to establish yourself without the need of claiming an entire island or coast line. Additionally, if NPCs can be set on patrol or guard duty within a territory with conditional parameters players can create essentially a law enforcement system within their claim that is automated. Allowing for the creation of player made towns. It would also help if there was a way to create a port in which the NPC merchants would come to dock. And have a system where players can compete in trading goods between these ports. Putting more merchants, both NPC and Players on the ocean, which in PvP is more potential content. Having the ebb and flow of commerce with an enphasis on city building rather than physical space control would improve the experience of PvP and PvE. 

But as of right now, PvE is in the better state between the two modes of the game it seems.  

 Nobody will ever trust you in pvp. If you can find someone that will trust you, once they get wiped you will lose that trust as well.

Edited by Realist

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1 hour ago, Realist said:

 Nobody will ever trust you in pvp. If you can find someone that will trust you, once they get wiped you will lose that trust as well.

There is absolutely no reason to trust anyone in the current state of PvP and claims. Even allowing people to build within your claim sounds like a foolish idea as betrayal is cheap and consequence non-existent. 

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Posted (edited)

@Hector of Troy perhaps this thread here could be a step in the right direction as it specifically deals with making and holding land claims be a more costly endeavor, where it would make those that either wants to hold or is holding land claim(s) having to focus on activities that yields gold to be able claim and continuously keep the land:

This idea can be further explored and be made even better and viable for the game.

I think your idea of making NPCs able to patrol and guard is great, and not just for guarding/patrolling of claim flags, but also because if the npc's can be set to guard/patrol, they could also be made to have other types of specific behaviour, and quite possibly be set to also detect various things. So say if crime system was implemented, they could be set to give a notification whenever they observe someone violating the laws.

I think it's a great idea to be able to make a port where various npc ships could dock, to for instance trade with the players. Likewise, a system is needed for player driven trade, whether that is trading commodities and other resources, or that is trading services in exchange for resources/goods or other services, but effectively having something that lets players have a system that will make a trade transaction possible, including being able to list items and services along with their price point.

 

Edited by Incarnate
Adding more text.
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2 hours ago, Hector of Troy said:

I think most of the PvE complaints have been centered on the lite PvP elements they don't like. As an avid PvPer it seems like common sense to protect your stuff. There game needs to strike a balance between pve and pvp elements I think on one mega server while using the resources of both to increase player caps while limiting how much coastal real estate is claimable.

I think there could be lessons learned from an EvE online approach of having non pvp sectors, lite pvp, and full on pvp. This would allow for a lot more interactions in non pvp areas while encouraging traditional pve players to venture into pvp areas to get some sort of resource, a trade route, or treasure.

Also when it comes to shipbuilding, due to size of shipyards, I think NPC controlled shipyards that you pay a time frame for use would be useful. It keeps random shipyard spam down and frees up coast lines while adding to the list of things you can spend gold on.

I think you're spot on in terms of learning from Eve online, in regards to non-pvp, lite pvp and full on pvp sectors, which makes sense from several perspectives, where one of the more important ones is server requirements and performance with regards to them being a smaller studio, this would free up more resources that they could spend on other things they need to aquire for the game, whether that be a piece of technology, a specialist, and artist, etc. Another perspective is that it would also become a much more enjoyable gameplay experience, as you would be able to freely choose between PvE and PvP, on a case by case situation, rather than having to be only one or both to experience both gameplay, which both would be vastly different from one that combines both.

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37 minutes ago, Incarnate said:

@Hector of Troy perhaps this thread here could be a step in the right direction as it specifically deals with making and holding land claims be a more costly endeavor, where it would make those that either wants to hold or is holding land claim(s) having to focus on activities that yields gold to be able claim and continuously keep the land:

This idea can be further explored and be made even better and viable for the game.

I think your idea of making NPCs able to patrol and guard is great, and not just for guarding/patrolling of claim flags, but also because if the npc's can be set to guard/patrol, they could also be made to have other types of specific behaviour, and quite possibly be set to also detect various things. So say if crime system was implemented, they could be set to give a notification whenever they observe someone violating the laws.

I think it's a great idea to be able to make a port where various npc ships could dock, to for instance trade with the players. Likewise, a system is needed for player driven trade, whether that is trading commodities and other resources, or that is trading services in exchange for resources/goods or other services, but effectively having something that lets players have a system that will make a trade transaction possible, including being able to list items and services along with their price point.

 

That would be great. The game needs features that build upon the idea of taming the land and making it a digital space in which players use to communicate, meet, and trade. Once there is a society to support it then pirating becomes a viable method of playing the game as people look to get rich off trade. To me, its the direction the game should go. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Hector of Troy said:

That would be great. The game needs features that build upon the idea of taming the land and making it a digital space in which players use to communicate, meet, and trade. Once there is a society to support it then pirating becomes a viable method of playing the game as people look to get rich off trade. To me, its the direction the game should go. 

 

Exactly, and it takes time for the gameplay environment to establish and stabilize to support and cultivate other types of gameplay. I also think that they should be focusing on diversifying the skill trees to make players more reliant on others and less self-sufficient, rather than make every player self-sufficient and self-reliant as that inherently disincentivizes trade and any reason to interact with others except when you're more less forced to. Making players self-sufficient and self-reliant can be good for a single player gameplay and experience, but for a playerdriven MMO thats also a sandbox, it's not.

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2 hours ago, Hector of Troy said:

I think most of the PvE complaints have been centered on the lite PvP elements they don't like. As an avid PvPer it seems like common sense to protect your stuff. There game needs to strike a balance between pve and pvp elements I think on one mega server while using the resources of both to increase player caps while limiting how much coastal real estate is claimable.

I think there could be lessons learned from an EvE online approach of having non pvp sectors, lite pvp, and full on pvp. This would allow for a lot more interactions in non pvp areas while encouraging traditional pve players to venture into pvp areas to get some sort of resource, a trade route, or treasure.

Also when it comes to shipbuilding, due to size of shipyards, I think NPC controlled shipyards that you pay a time frame for use would be useful. It keeps random shipyard spam down and frees up coast lines while adding to the list of things you can spend gold on.

By the way, I'm in the process of making a write up based on the part about what can be learned from Eve online, in regards to having a blend between non-pvp (pure pve), lite pvp and full pvp, trade, etc. and why it would be beneficial for them and their player to use this model as opposed to their current model. Most likely they won't change their model, and quite possibly because they don't have the gameplay infrastructure set up to support this kind of gameplay, especially in regards to npcs and so on. So if you have something you'd like me to add, feel free to message me the details.

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6 hours ago, MaxPower said:

Well the problem with PvE is that it has too much PvP right now.

The reason people play PvE is so they don't have to deal with other players destroying this stuff or stealing from them, yet that's been quite possible. They finally fixed the lack of locks on containers however its still possible to sink other players ships in PvE, which is hilariously messed up. PvP just has the usual issues with PvP in a survival game, so you know what to expect going in.  

My thoughts exactly! And the new lock system in PvE is one of the best things they've added now.

I play both, PvE and PvP and there is no real seperation between both modes right now. Hope they'll add some more PvE features so we dont have to deal any longer with destroyig bases and ships in PvE.

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1 hour ago, Incarnate said:

By the way, I'm in the process of making a write up based on the part about what can be learned from Eve online, in regards to having a blend between non-pvp (pure pve), lite pvp and full pvp, trade, etc. and why it would be beneficial for them and their player to use this model as opposed to their current model. Most likely they won't change their model, and quite possibly because they don't have the gameplay infrastructure set up to support this kind of gameplay, especially in regards to npcs and so on. So if you have something you'd like me to add, feel free to message me the details.

I think the only thing to add would be if they would allow the community to tackle through some of these issues and if a mod can be made to accomplish it if that has a chance to being incorporated into the live version of the game.

38 minutes ago, BPeppers said:

My thoughts exactly! And the new lock system in PvE is one of the best things they've added now.

I play both, PvE and PvP and there is no real seperation between both modes right now. Hope they'll add some more PvE features so we dont have to deal any longer with destroyig bases and ships in PvE.

I have to say the biggest difference is that you can protect your stuff. You can build a ship with a spawn point thats not going to be claimed while you are offline.

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5 hours ago, Hector of Troy said:

 As an avid PvPer it seems like common sense to protect your stuff.

Youre not an avid PvPer and protecting your stuff is easy. Stay on PvE.

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15 minutes ago, MightySheep said:

Youre not an avid PvPer and protecting your stuff is easy. Stay on PvE.

I am an avid PvPer. But if we want to make up facts about each other I'll go next.

You love putting ham on ice cream and squeal like a girl when someone licks your.... oh nevermind see how silly this is?

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33 minutes ago, Hector of Troy said:

I am an avid PvPer. But if we want to make up facts about each other I'll go next.

You love putting ham on ice cream and squeal like a girl when someone licks your.... oh nevermind see how silly this is?

Except I conclude youre not an avid PvPer quite easily because of how dumb the title of this thread is. This game without actual PvP would be dogshit and anyone who thinks that is a "better version of this game" is 1-not a pvper and 2-an imbecile.

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11 hours ago, MightySheep said:

Except I conclude youre not an avid PvPer quite easily because of how dumb the title of this thread is. This game without actual PvP would be dogshit and anyone who thinks that is a "better version of this game" is 1-not a pvper and 2-an imbecile.

 

PvP in this game is in a very bad spot. And if you are too insecure to realize that and depend on personal attacks then I don't need to be bothered by you. You're probably a sperg that has no skill.

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21 hours ago, Percieval said:

Really? I'm playing PvP and most people that have been complaining over the last week are from PvE..

It is true though 🙂   Us PvErs do complain.. but largely about nerfs that have come directly from PvP servers / complaints 😄

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11 hours ago, MightySheep said:

Except I conclude youre not an avid PvPer quite easily because of how dumb the title of this thread is. This game without actual PvP would be dogshit and anyone who thinks that is a "better version of this game" is 1-not a pvper and 2-an imbecile.

To be fair, with the game in the state it's in, if you're getting gangbanged by critters, you're getting stuff smashed up whilst at work etc etc...  It's a very stressful game.  PvE takes half the stress away!  There's enough face palming bruises on my face from crocks eating you through your hull, let alone being pursued by SoTD AND players at the same time lol.

When the game settles and PvP is the only thing to contend with, I can see decent gameplay afoot... right now I'm bald with all the hair tearing 😄 

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I usually play PvE in sandbox mode games as I like to be able to build up a base in my own time and do things without the fear of losing anything.

With Atlas, i decided to jump straight in at the deep end and go PvP with the expectation that I will have to start again and again and again. I havent. Well not since last night anyway but I guess that could change when I log back in later.

PvP should literally be about temporary bases and ships, battles, running, hiding, fighting, stealing and all the other exciting things that come with it. What I have currently seen from players who are complaining are that they lost everything and their ships got destroyed. Yes, I understand the pain of it happening (especially if it is due to exploits) but this is a start of a game (early access) and I for one definitely knew that nothing would be lasting long and that I would probably die a lot. 

People need to stop thinking that they are going to build something which will last... it wont, get over it, whether its raided when you are offline, or meshed, or whatever. Buck up, man up and go adventuring again.

I was lucky enough that our first lawless island was well occupied but I found a bit of land and those around us all allied together. If you lose everything, build up a raft and go in a different direction.

A lot of this is also the same in PvE. At this moment in time dont expect to build a base which will stand the age of time.

Are you the type of player who plays a simulation game and reloads and saves every 5 mins just in case something goes wrong? If so, do not play PvP or EA games as you will only end up in tears.

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12 hours ago, MightySheep said:

Except I conclude youre not an avid PvPer quite easily because of how dumb the title of this thread is. This game without actual PvP would be dogshit and anyone who thinks that is a "better version of this game" is 1-not a pvper and 2-an imbecile.

It's an interesting thing you happen think so, because I know quite a lot of Avid PvP'ers who were playing PvP, but due to all the issues they switched to PvE.
PvP are alot worse than PvE, because there are so many bugs, glitches, OP wildlife, etc. but also especially due to cheaters, hackers, exploiters, griefers and so on, because it's a lot more difficult to survive on a PvP server, where losing everything due to a glitch or someone hacking/cheating/exploiting mechanics in the game that will give unfair advantages, means a heck a of a lot more, as you've likely spent a great deal more effort on that.

Bottomline is, there are a lot of avid PvP players who have played a good deal on the PvP servers, but realized it in such a bad situation right now, that efforts would be better spent playing PvE. Where I'm currently only playing on a PvP server, and I fully understand why people are fed up with all the issues. If you cannot see this, then don't bother responding, because that clearly shows that you and I would not be on a compatible wavelength.

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13 minutes ago, Anarki said:

I usually play PvE in sandbox mode games as I like to be able to build up a base in my own time and do things without the fear of losing anything.

With Atlas, i decided to jump straight in at the deep end and go PvP with the expectation that I will have to start again and again and again. I havent. Well not since last night anyway but I guess that could change when I log back in later.

PvP should literally be about temporary bases and ships, battles, running, hiding, fighting, stealing and all the other exciting things that come with it. What I have currently seen from players who are complaining are that they lost everything and their ships got destroyed. Yes, I understand the pain of it happening (especially if it is due to exploits) but this is a start of a game (early access) and I for one definitely knew that nothing would be lasting long and that I would probably die a lot. 

People need to stop thinking that they are going to build something which will last... it wont, get over it, whether its raided when you are offline, or meshed, or whatever. Buck up, man up and go adventuring again.

I was lucky enough that our first lawless island was well occupied but I found a bit of land and those around us all allied together. If you lose everything, build up a raft and go in a different direction.

A lot of this is also the same in PvE. At this moment in time dont expect to build a base which will stand the age of time.

Are you the type of player who plays a simulation game and reloads and saves every 5 mins just in case something goes wrong? If so, do not play PvP or EA games as you will only end up in tears.

I think thats one of the issues. No ship battles. The majority of fights I have been in or seen have been on land contesting a spam based claim system.

Without some reason to make trade routes there is no way to predict where people will go or head to. Which in reality there are should be routes you can estimate. But without that and the number of SotD, the sailing is mostly a PvE experience anyway. PvP really is limiting where fights happen.

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