boomervoncannon

Does anyone have a problem grasping the core argument here that number of players who will be specced into a given skill to be able to use the armor/weapon/tool < all players and therefore the restriction needlessly limits the crafters potential market? I have seen people attempt to nitpick this point by arguing based on their personal preferences that the impact of this limitation will be minimal. I disagree but that is an area where there is room for debate. What I have yet to see is anyone present a compelling argument why the limitation itself has any value or merit. At best people have said well it doesn’t require you to use too many points to be able to wear it, but they cannot offer a fundamental reason why that limitation is a design choice that has merit, only that its neagatives are not overly strong. The far more common industry practice of level gating armor tiers makes far greater sense imo, as lower levels are unlikely to be able to assemble the variety of needed mats anyway.

I think you need only the correct crafting station, but the fact you need the skill to be able to use the thing at all makes this a moot point.

He had the only baseball field built by plowing his own cornfields under because he heard a ghost. I’m not arguing that baseball analogies are equivalent to capitalism, only that the statement if you build it they will come doesn’t apply very well to the problem the thread is about. Thus are the limits of argument by analogy. Neverwinter.

If everyone had a baseball diamond in their cornfield, would those ghosts have shown up at Ray Kinsela's Field of Dreams? If everyone must have the ability to build it before they can come, the number who will show up to yours is going to be less than it could. We could sit here and argue and theorize about how much less and why, but it is a plain simple fact that the number will be fewer than it could be and I have yet to see any compelling argument for why the present requirement has any benefit to counter this negative. Also, I think you are making a mistake of assuming that a far larger percentage of the playerbase shares your personal disdain for crafting. Some players disdain crafting, in an MMO with crafting, most do not since it is one of the core mechanics. As I've previously stated, my position is based on having played games where developers who did not care about stimulating economy instituted similar restrictions, with the result that there was little to no market for crafted gear. There are examples of existing and past games that prove that simply having crafting in your game does not equate to presto ECONOMY!

which is signficantly easier to obtain the mats for. Most people can get 3 versions of a mat class fairly easily, it's that fourthe and fifth and especially sixth that become increasingly harder, so far more players will craft their own JM if they can wear it because it will be easier. Also I don't know if you have looked at the base stats baked into jm class, but they are far less appealing than those of higher classes. As presently constructed I would argue that JM gear isn't likely to be heavily upgraded and sold when players evaluate cost of doing so vs return. The returns look a lot more worthwhile in the higher stuff, as they should.

I think this is the only point where we disagree. I do not see the current design choice as encouraging sales for the crafter, while you say that the crafter will always be able to sell. I have seen MMO's where crafters were unable to sell because of design choices by development teams that did not prioritize economy. Oh in theory they could sell, there just wasn't any meaningful market for their goods, and I think this may be what you are overlooking. The current design choice restricts rather than encourages the market for crafted goods. We can debate to what degree, but this fundamental fact is fairly obvious and straightforward.

Maths ftw

Okay I can see how this creates increased nuance within the use of armor. Do you want just to be able to wear it, or wear it without drawbacks? I will say that presenting players with choices where they are spending to remove negatives rather than spending to increase positives, while mathematically equivalent, will be less warmly received by players. My core point is still this: If the requirement to craft is the same as the requirement to wear, I'm betting that the majority of those that can wear will choose to craft for themselves and this will sharply limit the market for selling crafted items. Having skills that improve the effectiveness of armor or eliminate drawbacks is fine, because it is far less likely to negatively impact the market for crafted armor, to say nothing of weapons or tools.

I personally don't see how creating a limitation that is both thematically nonsensical and trade inhibiting (you can talk about sacrificing only a few points all you want but my experience is I know fewer players at or near max level specced into armor than I do who are not, and those are not mostly solo players) is a benefit in any way shape or form. I am all for creating the need to make decisions about a build and not allowing everyone to do everything, but your argument wears thin when you start to look at what the full benefits of wearing and using these things cost. If the full armor tree worth of points isn't important, why do the non wearing skills exist? If these non wearing skills are important, then failing to take them is gimping you in the use of armor in order to do other things. I know of no game that puts significant stats into gear, then forces players to choose between using that gear, using that gear effectively, and fully having other professions. The bottom line is that any experienced game developer will tell you that a good general primciple in game design is limiting choices and options is poor design, providing choices and options is good design (with the caveat that number of choices not be overwhelming in quantity or complexity). The present design only limits choices, it does not increase them in any way, and there is no meaningful benefit to doing so that I can perceive.

It's doubly weird given that there is little precedent for it in the MMO genre and none that I'm aware of in MMO's that support significant economy. The thing makes no sense whatsoever from about five different angles and on top of that I can't find a single angle from which it would make any sense.

True and valid points, however anyone familiar with the most basic concepts of marketing will understand that if you limit potential customers to those that have chosen to take a given skill tree to at least some degree, you are reducing by a wide margin the potential market to sell to. Using an analogy, one of the reasons beer commercials are ubiquitous on commercial television is because everyone of legal drinking age can drink and enjoy beer, the potential market for it is effectively the entire adult population. Advertisements for PediaSure, a beverage designed to deliver needed nutrients for growing children and sometimes the elderly are less common because the market is far smaller. Atlas's developers have effectively made all crafters marketers of PediaSure instead of beer for no particularly good reason that I can see.

Well their value is definately currently in the fact you're not required to spec into to use them, but this only highlights the absurdity of the present requirements imo.

you have common bp's that give additional health, stamina, weight carry etc? If so the increments I'm sure are insignificant as almost all fine quality bp stats are.

As a pvper, the lower level bp's like green and blue are definately not worth the time to really bother with. The legendary and mythic bp's are sporting stat boosts that especially once upgraded by a crafter with high intelligence might be something you don't want to ignore. Just a heads up.

Thus we see the problems that arise from commenting on posts you've not bothered to take the time to understand.

Well you don't get stats from common armor and tools, so I figured it would be pretty well understood that BP's were what was being talked about.

It has been this way from day one. In order to wear armor above common quality one must spec into armor, same for weapons and tools.

1. Requiring the skill to craft in order to use armor/weapons/tools. 2. Stated design goal of fostering economy and trading. These two items are fundamentally at odds and I'm not sure why anyone should even need to mention this tbh. If crafters can't sell their wares to others because those folks don't have the necessary skills just to be able to use the thing they're buying, this is a dampening factor on potential economy and trade to put it mildly. No one will buy things from others they can craft themselves, so the requirement defeats the idea of trade. Also, if you are going to build stats into gear, you are effectively requiring people to take gear trees or voluntarily gimp themselves compared to others. This is a mechanic with zero upside that I can see and multiple significant downsides. The thinking that might even have led to the decision to have initial design go in this direction frankly eludes me. I cannot imagine what the goal or benefit might have been.

Hi gang. Based out of o2 server on NA PVE. Looking to setup regular trades with folks in other sectors for Fine and above maps located in any zone adjacent to 02 for maps we may have near you. We have maps of both fine and journeyman quality around the grid so talk to me.

Yeah my company leader is ex navy so that bit gets pronounced correctly on our discord, but I'm betting we're in the minority. Quick off topic plug for those who enjoy science fiction: I highly recommend David Weber's Safehold series, it's tenth book was just published and it looks to have many more to go. He's the anti George RR Martin in that he gets his books out in a very timely manner so you're not waiting for the next geological era for a new book, and the first couple of books in the series deal heavily with wind powered nautical combat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safehold

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing) one of those crazy nautical terms sailors like to use where they have their own language like pig Latin to confuse the rest of us. ”Hoist the jib ye salty dog and trim the starboard mizzen.” ”Sorry was that English or are you having a stroke?”

My company has found that not letting animals touch walls seems to reduce the risk of them falling through the floor.

The term for this is tacking.

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Verily I say unto you, this man is a prophet.