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Tindalen

Ship speed calculations based on weight

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Posted (edited)

Did some calculations based on these assumptions:
Fresh made galleon with a carry weight of 30,000
Common speed sails, weight sails, and cargo crates
Weight sails give 60% of the speed that weight sails give
weight sails and cargo crate penalties are not additive.

Given those assumptions and taking the average speed percentage of weights between 9k and 27k carried weight, the best configuration is 6 speed sails with 1-3 cargo crates.

the percentage calculations I am using is
= (1-(#WeightSails)*6.7%)* (1-(#CargoCrates)*6.7%)*(1-CurrentWgt/MaxWgt)^0.5


image.png.28802d3d5a215939ebd71f0a673932ac.png

 

Brigantine

image.png.773b68b401af7d433e6e0693dfcd4263.png

 

Schooner (assuming 1 large speed sail)

image.png.59f4a379aa3f78b42957be9729c55e3c.png

Edited by Tindalen
Corrected graphs
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Pointless.  Speed is safety.  I had hoped that the supply crates would be a way to carry more cargo, WITHOUT such a huge speed hit.  Here's the thing...most people don't sail their ships around with a lot of cargo in them.  That's only a small part of what the ship gets used for.  Nobody is going to say, "Hey, we can squeeze a bit more speed out of this thing is we pull up to the next island, build a loom, make new sails, and demolish the BLUEPRINT sails we have on the ship already.  So the meta will still be to run all speed sails...maybe one handling sail on a Galleon...and then keep it relatively light.

 

I mean, great work doing all the math, but people simply aren't going to destroy blueprint sails, to gain a tiny bit of speed.  Like I said, they will just keep doing the method described above.

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I think you missed a point. If you look at all the data, 6 speed sails is always faster. But if you are above 50% weight, you are faster if you add a cargo crate.

image.png.2532d685bb725f9a4845abfb06235401.png

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12 hours ago, Captain Jack Shadow said:

Pointless.  Speed is safety. 

GTFO. It is the 4th time u completly miss the point now. Just start using your brain. There are different playstyles and gamemodes!

 

12 hours ago, Captain Jack Shadow said:

Like I said, they will just keep doing the method described above.

People can do what ever they want. The presented information may help them finding the right solution for THEIR problem.

----

14 hours ago, Tindalen said:

the percentage calculations I am using is
= (1-(#WeightSails)*6.7%)* (1-(#CargoCrates)*6.7%)*(1-CurrentWgt/MaxWgt)^0.5 

Looks good, i like graphs more, also u can add a *24/22 knots. I think speed in absolute is more ease to understand then the percentage.

 

Thanks also for backing up that the weight sail is still useless, it does kinda the same then the rack, but worse.

BUT, u used unleveled ships only, u may want to do it with ships with 40 level in weight also. It should shift the results abit.

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1 or 2 weight sails seems to be good if not using cargo crates.

2 or 3 cargo crates seems to be the ideal.

Can you plug in these to your spreadsheet as combinations and if posible, at what weight you slow down to 50-60%

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Could you add a field for sail quality for the weight sails? I’d like to see what difference weight sail quality can make, and if that makes the weight sails better than the cargo containers.

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So this seems fairly popular, I am considering tossing together a website with some ship calculations. 

15 hours ago, seruum said:

Thanks for all your work mate, great post.

Thank you!

 

7 hours ago, Kummba said:

Looks good, i like graphs more, also u can add a *24/22 knots. I think speed in absolute is more ease to understand then the percentage.

BUT, u used unleveled ships only, u may want to do it with ships with 40 level in weight also. It should shift the results abit.

I will add in settings for percentage or knots speed and ship base weight.

 

5 hours ago, Jack Shandy said:

1 or 2 weight sails seems to be good if not using cargo crates.

2 or 3 cargo crates seems to be the ideal.

Can you plug in these to your spreadsheet as combinations and if posible, at what weight you slow down to 50-60%

I will see if I can get decent displays.

 

2 hours ago, gadefence said:

Well, this will help with my gold running cargo brig.

Awesome! I am glad you find this useful.

 

17 minutes ago, Salty Del said:

Could you add a field for sail quality for the weight sails? I’d like to see what difference weight sail quality can make, and if that makes the weight sails better than the cargo containers.

I will see what I can do. Not entirely sure what the weight sail BP bonus does.

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The bonuses are increased durability and weight. For example, I have a large masterwork weight sail blueprint that has 123% weight.

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9 hours ago, Kummba said:

GTFO. It is the 4th time u completly miss the point now. Just start using your brain. There are different playstyles and gamemodes!

 

And you completely miss the point.  Options have always been there, and yet Speed sails are the PvP Meta.  Why?  Because it doesn't matter how much you can carry, when your ship is sunk.  Simple as that.  If you are much slower than the other guy, you cannot run from him, if you need to.  So almost everyone on PvP, runs as fast as they can.  Giving the cargo crates a 40% speed hit, makes no sense.  Weight sails have always been available.  People on PvP, for the most part, do not like to use them...because you lose too much speed.

PvE may be completely different.

 

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5 minutes ago, Captain Jack Shadow said:

And you completely miss the point.  Options have always been there, and yet Speed sails are the PvP Meta.  Why?  Because it doesn't matter how much you can carry, when your ship is sunk.  Simple as that.  If you are much slower than the other guy, you cannot run from him, if you need to.  So almost everyone on PvP, runs as fast as they can.  Giving the cargo crates a 40% speed hit, makes no sense.  Weight sails have always been available.  People on PvP, for the most part, do not like to use them...because you lose too much speed.

PvE may be completely different.

 

here is the issue, and the part you seem unable to comprehend. According to the math, at certain weights, you will move faster with a weight sail or two than you would with all speed sails. So depending on what your normal configuration and weight is, you may be faster with a cargo crate or a weight sail. 

I would suggest you actually attempt to read the data I provided instead of shouting something that you heard someone else say.

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Tindalen said:

here is the issue, and the part you seem unable to comprehend. According to the math, at certain weights, you will move faster with a weight sail or two than you would with all speed sails. So depending on what your normal configuration and weight is, you may be faster with a cargo crate or a weight sail. 

I would suggest you actually attempt to read the data I provided instead of shouting something that you heard someone else say.

 

The part that you are missing is that you are still slower than a guy who managed his weight, with speed sails, with his ship set up to go pirating.  Significantly slower, which is why on official PvP, you see almost all speed sails.  Understand now?  I made the suggestion for those cargo crates, but when I made the suggestion to them, a long time ago, I made it with the idea that ships would have to sacrifice some cannons, not speed, to carry more weight at the same speed as those shooting at them.

I completely understand that yes, if one guy has speed sails, and overloads his ship, it will be slower than a ship with the same weight, but with weight sails.  There is nothing new about that.  But, you are not as fast as a guy who managed his weight, and has his ship set up to sink other ships.  That's the point, and that's why speed sails will still be the meta on PvP.  The concept is as old as battle...in a battle, speed is life.  It didn't start with this game.

Edited by Captain Jack Shadow

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1 minute ago, Captain Jack Shadow said:

The part that you are missing is that you are still slower than a guy who managed his weight, with speed sails, with his ship set up to go pirating.  Significantly slower, which is why on official PvP, you see almost all speed sails.  Understand now?  I made the suggestion for those cargo crates, but when I made the suggestion to them, a long time ago, I made it with the idea that ships would have to sacrifice some cannons, not speed, to carry more weight at the same speed as those shooting at them.

I completely understand that yes, if one guy has speed sails, and overloads his ship, it will be slower than a ship with the same weight, but with weight sails.  There is nothing new about that.  But, you are not as fast as a guy who managed his weight, and has his ship set up to sink other ships.  That's the point, and that's why speed sails will still be the meta on PvP.  The concept is as old as battle...in a battle, speed is life.  It didn't start with this game.

So your complaint about my work is that "you should not carry that much weight"? Really?
 

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This post is only workable for PVE players like myself no PVP player would consider putting cargo or weight sails at least not unless they love risking it sinking.

personally based of my tests, effects of the cargo are cumulative, and since im a PVE player i only need to make sure my speed is above 6knots even under the crappiest of winds at 90% weight to outrun sods.

The changes have been quite nice. my weight using 3 weight sails128% and 3 speed sails has gone from 41 to 51k. my cruise speed on good wind  at standards weight7.5k is about 14.5knots, 8knots on garbage wind. once at 90% thats about 9.5knots normal wind and 6.8knots garbage wind.(this is all  full green on wind)

the cargo only increases capacity not weight and each one costs about 6.5% speed which is rather deadly real quick.basically 8k worth of metal at 1600weight per cargo at a 6.5% speed reduction cost.

if you keep that in mind its easy to see that putting more than 2 cargo nets would be deadly, and at 1 safe and 2..questionable.

each speed sail seems to give about 1.1% speed with 6 speeds getting you a normal cruise speed of about 17knots on normal good wind conditions and basic weight.any way you look at it thats already death if you reduce it 40% without actually carrying more than default weight.  I know the 17knots because i have a lvl 37 galleon that i use just to fast travel with all speed sails.

Oh and btw, speed sails are not fixed, my company has tested this. common sails/legendary speed sails...no difference in speed.

all in all the new changes bumped me from 90% 29k carry weight to 90%38k+ atleast 1 cargo and that puts me at 44.8k actual weight(38k-1600+8k of the actual cargo mats weight)

This doesn't count a 2ndcargo which i think might be doable..but questionable risk to dropping to 6knots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Tindalen thank you for the good work, if you need help to turn that data into a graph I can help - will take about 30 seconds.

Captain Jack Shadow the adults are talking now, you are not understanding that he is not advocating anything just presenting data for comparison.

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This info is very valuable for players looking to maintain best speeds while moving large amounts of cargo.  I don't get what all the fuss is about. 

OMG your ship will be slower so why bother carrying anything. 

DUH?

Its nice to understand how speed works in this game.  If I can setup a ship to maximize speed with weight it buys time and when faced with a much faster ship time is key. 

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3 minutes ago, DocHolliday said:

This info is very valuable for players looking to maintain best speeds while moving large amounts of cargo.  I don't get what all the fuss is about. 

OMG your ship will be slower so why bother carrying anything. 

DUH?

Its nice to understand how speed works in this game.  If I can setup a ship to maximize speed with weight it buys time and when faced with a much faster ship time is key. 

You are definitely my huckleberry!

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btw you should do actual testing and get some actual speed numbers. knowing what your best combination for max speeds is all fine and dandy. but if that leads you to your best speed being 5knots, then its all meaningless and you are leading people to a lot of sunk boats by sods they cant outrun. you should rework everything based on the assumption that you want your "best speed" even under crap wind to keep you above 6knots speed.

 and now that i look at it all in detail the whole this is actually bad info.

" Weight sails give 60% of the speed that weight sails give
weight sails and cargo crate penalties are not additive.

 

i'm confused what you mean by giving 60% of speed that weight sails give.

and weight sails and cargo crates penalties not additive?- they are very much additive.

speed is 100% that varys by ship as to what 100% actually means knots wise.

but 100% is still 100% when you put weight sails. meaning galleon 30k weight=100%, adding 1 weight sail just makes it 34k=100% with speed being determined by the % of unused weight. but what is 100% mean to a galleon? based on experience i guess its about 14knots speed under normal good wind conditions.

so 30k=100%(14knots), or 34k=100%(14knots)

whatever cargo you add IS additive, and hits you with about a 6.5% speed penalty.

or 14knots at one cargo net means 14-6.5%(dropping your speed to 13.09knotts of best possible speed at basic weight)

14knots at 2 cargo nets means 14knots -(~13%)

speed sails are the only thing im not 100% sure off but appear to add independent bonus which kinda makes sense due to their description.

example.

common sails say they give 100% this i believe is misleading in description as they seem to give about 1knott per common sail.once you get a bp you notice the description might say something like 103% but i think thats because for speed sails 100% =1knot so 103% for a speed sail might acutally mean 1.03 knots.which means it is an independing addition to speed not affected by cargo.

I believe this because i have a galleon with 6 speed sails and another that i use with weight sails and no cargo and the difference in speeds with and without addition, pre and after patch seem to match my theory.(galleons is pretty much the only boat i sail, so im very familiar with typical speeds on it at various setting/sail combinations)

 

 

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6 hours ago, Tindalen said:

So your complaint about my work is that "you should not carry that much weight"? Really?
 

I have NO complain with your work.  I am simply saying that because the Devs are making the decisions that they are making, they are making your work less relevant, especially on PvP.  Frankly, if I were them, I would remove the idea of speed sails.  All sails would have the same overall speed.  Maneuvering sails would be better into the wind, and speed sails would be better with the wind.  Weight sails would allow for more weight to be carried...just reducing the effect of weight on the ship, but be the same general speed as the other two sails.  Maybe adding one would increase weight carrying, but only slightly reduce the speed.  It would not be as fast as either sails, going into the respective strengths of those sails, but would be faster going into each one of those other sail's weakness. 

 

My aim would be to create a system where nobody is put at a total disadvantage with regard to speed.  So long as you use the strengths of your set up to your advantage, you are never at a severe disadvantage.  This would help reduce the likelihood that there would be one recognized Meta.

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6 hours ago, pfg said:

Tindalen thank you for the good work, if you need help to turn that data into a graph I can help - will take about 30 seconds.

Captain Jack Shadow the adults are talking now, you are not understanding that he is not advocating anything just presenting data for comparison.

You aren't one of the adults, since you can't understand that I was not questioning his work, nor was I even criticizing it.  Don't be such a snowflake, and understand that I was literally stating that decisions of the Devs have made his work all but useless for PvP...not because there is anything wrong with his work, but because the Devs are creating a Meta.  They need to completely rethink the way they are doing these sails.  They need to find a way...maybe the way I posted above...to make it such that all sails can be relevant, without making you sacrifice a fighting chance to escape, if you need to.  As it is, speed is life.  This is what the Devs have created...they didn't invent the concept...they just ignore that it is the reality, and you cannot re-invent the wheel where this is concerned.  PvP players are NOT going to sacrifice that much speed.  They will use speed sails, and manage the wight to keep the speed up.  That simply means more trips, with less cargo, but that is what they will do, because no load of cargo is worth losing the ship...especially with BP planks, decks, cannons, and sails.

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5 hours ago, DocHolliday said:

Its nice to understand how speed works in this game.  If I can setup a ship to maximize speed with weight it buys time and when faced with a much faster ship time is key. 

Agreed...for one trip...but in a PvP setting, the efficiency of one trip is NOT your only concern, nor is it the most important concern.  Not getting sunk IS the primary concern.  Even a common Galleon is no joke.  You do not want to lose that.  With BP everything on it, you really don't want to get it sunk.  So you do not sacrifice speed for a few thousand more K of cargo.  Doing so will eventually cost you your ship.  You might lose it anyway...ships get sunk in this game...but running slow increases that risk exponentially.

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Reading this, an interesting idea occurred to me for a PvP use for cargo crates. Use them to lure in prey! They’ll think you’re loaded up, but they’ll just be empty and slowing you down while still being at full sails. Once the prey gets close enough, dump them to get the speed back and turn the attack on them. Better yet, have an ally sailing nearby that can come in to support or flank them.

There you go; a use for the cargo crates in PvP. Will it actually work that way? I have no idea. I don’t play PvP.

But, I do now have a good idea of what configuration to use on a galleon to transfer as much cargo as I can without losing too much speed.

Thanks, Tindalen 😊

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On 6/4/2019 at 1:13 PM, Tindalen said:

Did some calculations based on these assumptions:
Fresh made galleon with a carry weight of 30,000
Common speed sails, weight sails, and cargo crates
Weight sails give 60% of the speed that weight sails give
weight sails and cargo crate penalties are not additive.

Given those assumptions and taking the average speed percentage of weights between 9k and 27k carried weight, the best configuration is 6 speed sails with 1-3 cargo crates.

the percentage calculations I am using is
= (1-(#WeightSails)*6.7%)* (1-(#CargoCrates)*6.7%)*(1-CurrentWgt/MaxWgt)^0.5


image.png.28802d3d5a215939ebd71f0a673932ac.png

 

Brigantine

image.png.773b68b401af7d433e6e0693dfcd4263.png

 

Schooner (assuming 1 large speed sail)

image.png.59f4a379aa3f78b42957be9729c55e3c.png

Great work, but can you explain what 0.200, 0.3, 0.4, etc are?? What are the percentages for ? speed? knots? speed loss? Great graph if you can provide a legend to follow.

Thanks!

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On 6/5/2019 at 8:20 PM, Salty Del said:

Reading this, an interesting idea occurred to me for a PvP use for cargo crates. Use them to lure in prey! They’ll think you’re loaded up, but they’ll just be empty and slowing you down while still being at full sails. Once the prey gets close enough, dump them to get the speed back and turn the attack on them. Better yet, have an ally sailing nearby that can come in to support or flank them.

There you go; a use for the cargo crates in PvP. Will it actually work that way? I have no idea. I don’t play PvP.

But, I do now have a good idea of what configuration to use on a galleon to transfer as much cargo as I can without losing too much speed.

Thanks, Tindalen 😊

Haha I like this idea.  We shall try it.  I will put 1 turd in each one.  When we drop it we will act like we are running.....If they stop to pick the crates up I'll turn on them and attack.  When they see the turd I think they'll get the picture. 

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