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Myrmidon

Merge PvP and PvE

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I have over 1000hrs in the game and I can tell you 100% you get rid of PvE and I will kiss the game goodbye.

If I want to play PvP I will go and play rust or something. I have no desire for PvP. 

Many people like  helping each other out and having good communities on islands so PvP would drive alot of players away.

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4 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

People are quitting on PvP due to low pop. And no, they're not leaving due to the PvP format. How do I know? I ask them.

I think your suggestion is hilarious.

Your server pop is too low so you want to merge servers, but you don't want to merge with the other pvp server, you want the pve players to all play pvp instead.

So, ok..  what if they merged the pve and pvp servers, and the pve people got the whole map with pvp being given 4 zones down in the SE corner.  And you can only craft things in pve, because pvp isn't about crafting,  If you have a base in the pvp zone, you cannot enter the pve zones without killing 3 whales, 20 Std, and the Kraken each time, and you can only stay for 2 hours.  Oh, and you're only allowed 3 chat lines per visit.  

That seems like it might work.

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29 minutes ago, Winter Thorne said:

I think your suggestion is hilarious.

Your server pop is too low so you want to merge servers, but you don't want to merge with the other pvp server, you want the pve players to all play pvp instead.

So, ok..  what if they merged the pve and pvp servers, and the pve people got the whole map with pvp being given 4 zones down in the SE corner.  And you can only craft things in pve, because pvp isn't about crafting,  If you have a base in the pvp zone, you cannot enter the pve zones without killing 3 whales, 20 Std, and the Kraken each time, and you can only stay for 2 hours.  Oh, and you're only allowed 3 chat lines per visit.  

That seems like it might work.

Doesn't work for me cause I don't want to deal with the cheaters. So maybe a character reset to level 1 when they come in then... maybe.

~Lotus

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32 minutes ago, Winter Thorne said:

I think your suggestion is hilarious.

Your server pop is too low so you want to merge servers, but you don't want to merge with the other pvp server, you want the pve players to all play pvp instead.

So, ok..  what if they merged the pve and pvp servers, and the pve people got the whole map with pvp being given 4 zones down in the SE corner.  And you can only craft things in pve, because pvp isn't about crafting,  If you have a base in the pvp zone, you cannot enter the pve zones without killing 3 whales, 20 Std, and the Kraken each time, and you can only stay for 2 hours.  Oh, and you're only allowed 3 chat lines per visit.  

That seems like it might work.

Thinking on your pve only crafting... If done RIGHT (Grapeshot couldnt) that could be a great idea. PvP players needing to rely on pve for supplies/ammo/weapons. You would need better shops, Maybe a shipyard you could store materials in to allow people to buy repairs.

Dont set zones as pvp/pve, let the player flag himself. Maybe lock the use of certain weapons behind the PvP flag.

Edited by Rapier2012
Moar thoughts

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I have to admit this topic is making me curious to try the PvP servers and see what it's all about 

We'll see 

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5 minutes ago, Derfel said:

I have to admit this topic is making me curious to try the PvP servers and see what it's all about 

We'll see 

PvP is basically how hard can you cheat without getting caught 😕

~Lotus

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1 hour ago, Rapier2012 said:

Thinking on your pve only crafting... If done RIGHT (Grapeshot couldnt) that could be a great idea. PvP players needing to rely on pve for supplies/ammo/weapons. You would need better shops, Maybe a shipyard you could store materials in to allow people to buy repairs.

Dont set zones as pvp/pve, let the player flag himself. Maybe lock the use of certain weapons behind the PvP flag.

I can't believe someone took that suggestion seriously.  

There's no way you keep pve players in a merge.  It's not the game mechanics, it's the environment.

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Just now, Winter Thorne said:

I can't believe someone took that suggestion seriously.  

There's no way you keep pve players in a merge.  It's not the game mechanics, it's the environment.

Only as a thought 😛 I cant think of a company that could pull off a system that ambitious very well. Could be cool though

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6 hours ago, boomervoncannon said:

So your suggestion is that for sake of increasing overall player count on a grid, you want to force pve players into a choice between participating in a play style they have declined prior OR stay within a small portion of the entire map? And pay folks to obtain things for them outside of this zone?

I have one question about your proposal:

Whats in this for pve players?  Because as you’ve described it, it looks like the answer is nothing.

Yep, we don’t always agree but I definitely agree with you on this. I was smh when I read this. Of course he is a pvp player as well. Not sure why pvp people feel that need to go attack people that don’t even want to play with them.

 

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11 minutes ago, Derfel said:

I have to admit this topic is making me curious to try the PvP servers and see what it's all about 

We'll see 

Let me save you some time-

Hack trees and rocks all day to forge out a little place.

Come back the next day with the door gone and/or your ship sunk.

Repeat.

I dont know why they call it PVP its not. More like player vs offline players door or loot chest. I dont have any problems with getting killed over and over fighting for something as a form of PVP but its not that, its just supplying someone else with all your resources when you are offline.

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6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Since the beginning, I have felt that we should have PvE and PvP on the same grid. We have a 255 server grid. When i looked at NA PvP, there were 1600 people on it. That is 6 people per grid. This is extremely low. I feel that we should have a smaller number of Freeports located around Kraken grid. Instead of Lawless zones around the Freeports, we should have PvE zones. This allows the players to mix and to cater to both groups. It also adds a bit of danger for the PvEers. Want Ironwood or Twigs? Gotta travel through PvP territory. Rare resources should be a reason to leave PvE zones. This way, everything cannot be crafted in PvE zones. Kraken should remain a PvP zone. Attached is a (very) rudimentary drawing of what the grid may be like. Red is PvP zones, with the Kraken zone dead center. Blue is PvE/Freeports.

pvpvegrid.png

Very hugely bad bad idea lol. Within a week you would still be left with 6 per server because the pve people won’t put up with you people.

only then there won’t be anymore pve servers so the 1600 that are on the pvp server would be the only players left at all.

as it stands right now the last Megas update only brought in an extra 2700 people from the 3k that was left. Currently they have already lost 12 of that 2700. The numbers are back to dropping already and you think mixing pve and pvp would help? Lol

nah, might help you raid and grief more people(which I know is what you want), but it won’t help anyone else

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2 hours ago, Lotus said:

Why would they add a penalty for grouping? It's an MMO -_-

~Lotus

Because you should not auto win any and all conflicts just because you have more players than anyone else.

It is not a penalty for "grouping".

It is a penalty for "swarming".

If there isn't going to be anything that could stop the largest group of asshats on a server from spiraling out of control, then at least add proper guerrila warfare, so small groups can stay out of reach of the larger ones by *effectively hiding away* and doing hard hitting skirmishes against the larer groups.

Large armies, by their very nature, should be a lot slower in their capabilities to react to anything, whereas a small group of people could strike literally any time, anywhere.

Where is the equivalent for that in this game?

Asymmetric warfare (in a GAME, mind you) is all fine and well, as long as there is a way for each side to come out successfully.

It should be *different* things a small group needs to do in order to win, as for the larger group.

But simply making one side not having ANY chance to win a fight just because they're fewer in numbers is lazy, stupid and shows a significant lack of understanding of how asymmetrical battle can be a satisfying and FUN experience for ALL involved parties.

This is a fricking GAME, mind you, and i am as much a paying customer as your fellow player, who wants to have FUN and not only get farmed by the bigger corps.

Also, stating that there is no problem simply because YOU don't have any problem, because you are part of the largest corp in the game only shows how little you are willing to help anyone but yourself, and how much you are part of the problem, as opposed to being part of the solution.

Bite me!

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6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

No skill involved - You're fighting the wrong people.

AFK raids - The new system has nearly eliminated AFK raids.

Exploits and Hacks - You're not going to get rid of these 100%. In any game. They're not as rampant as the forums make them out to be and the exploits are taken care of in short order.

Whats in it for PvE players? More people to play with. Works perfectly fine in Eve.

If concessions aren't made to increase the pop across the servers - there are going to be a lot of dead servers. I see people quit every day because of low pop.

Nah he is right. This isn’t real pvp. Neither was ark and this is ark.

offline raiding and Megas mass attacking is definitely not a respectable form of pvp. It’s just sad really.

you are very correct about the low pop though. Pretty soon it will be down to the 3k before the wipe happened. However, merging pvp and pve isn’t even close to helping.

they actually need to fix things. Like actually fix things. I know that is a little bit above their skill level but they need to find a way to do it.

but yeah pvp and pve needs to be separate for eternity 

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10 minutes ago, Nutcutt3r said:

Let me save you some time-

Hack trees and rocks all day to forge out a little place.

Come back the next day with the door gone and/or your ship sunk.

Repeat.

I dont know why they call it PVP its not. More like player vs offline players door or loot chest. I dont have any problems with getting killed over and over fighting for something as a form of PVP but its not that, its just supplying someone else with all your resources when you are offline.

That's very disappointing, I imagined large battles at sea , a fortified seaport defending against ship barrages etc...

Unappealing dose of reality it seems...

So why would you play PvP if it's just that bad?

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Just now, Derfel said:

That's very disappointing, I imagined large battles at sea , a fortified seaport defending against ship barrages etc...

Unappealing dose of reality it seems...

So why would you play PvP if it's just that bad?

I am sure if you are in a larger group then its a bit different, because then you are ok with looting all the startup players.

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So just for the devs benefit when they look at the thread:

Number of posters so far who like the Op’s suggestion: 0

Number of posters who think a brain dead lemur on crack would know better than to actually implement such a one sided pve unfriendly scheme: 10

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The way it was described before release was you had some on the front fighting, some in the middle protecting/defending and some in the back farming and gathering resources. It sounded to me like it was mixed PVE/PVP.

Maybe just PVE within a small flag radius and PVP out of it or something. I know its harder than that but I thought maybe they had figured out the concept of mixing the game types.

You started out and decided your role (this was said as well) if you were a farmer then thats what you did. That should make your area PVE, if you wanted to raid and plunder then that made you PVP, and anything goes. They just need a trading/explorer ship thats PVE or something like that and possibly something could work.

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6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

I see people quit every day because of low pop.

Or maybe its a low pop because people quit every day. 

I have never regained my interest since the wipe. I came back and rebuilt, the whole time wondering why I'm doing it. We rebuild for another wipe? That's just the thinking of a progression minded MMOer.

What was that comment from the devs a ways back? Something like "we are not really too concerned about how many are playing the game right now".

As far as a merge... I PVP in most games but PVP in this game looks like a grief fest. If servers merge, I won't be around.

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24 minutes ago, user1 said:

Because you should not auto win any and all conflicts just because you have more players than anyone else.

It is not a penalty for "grouping".

It is a penalty for "swarming".

If there isn't going to be anything that could stop the largest group of asshats on a server from spiraling out of control, then at least add proper guerrila warfare, so small groups can stay out of reach of the larger ones by *effectively hiding away* and doing hard hitting skirmishes against the larer groups.

Large armies, by their very nature, should be a lot slower in their capabilities to react to anything, whereas a small group of people could strike literally any time, anywhere.

Where is the equivalent for that in this game?

Asymmetric warfare (in a GAME, mind you) is all fine and well, as long as there is a way for each side to come out successfully.

It should be *different* things a small group needs to do in order to win, as for the larger group.

But simply making one side not having ANY chance to win a fight just because they're fewer in numbers is lazy, stupid and shows a significant lack of understanding of how asymmetrical battle can be a satisfying and FUN experience for ALL involved parties.

This is a fricking GAME, mind you, and i am as much a paying customer as your fellow player, who wants to have FUN and not only get farmed by the bigger corps.

Also, stating that there is no problem simply because YOU don't have any problem, because you are part of the largest corp in the game only shows how little you are willing to help anyone but yourself, and how much you are part of the problem, as opposed to being part of the solution.

Bite me!

You have something you can do to fight back as a small company... join or become a bigger company 😛

From my experience on PvP unless you really make somebody mad with good defenses you become a target that is effort vs reward. Megas will hit you once if they don't get anything good they will leave you alone when you rebuild. You do need to have a good relationship with the local megas and get on their do not hit list though.

~Lotus

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1 hour ago, Rapier2012 said:

Only as a thought 😛 I cant think of a company that could pull off a system that ambitious very well. Could be cool though

A friend and I have a game design that merges pvp and pve, but it also includes active present admins in the game.

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28 minutes ago, Lotus said:

You have something you can do to fight back as a small company... join or become a bigger company 😛

From my experience on PvP unless you really make somebody mad with good defenses you become a target that is effort vs reward. Megas will hit you once if they don't get anything good they will leave you alone when you rebuild. You do need to have a good relationship with the local megas and get on their do not hit list though.

~Lotus

Ok.

Do you think that there should be something that can give mega corps a run for their money?

Or should we simply let them do whatever they want, once they reach the member cap?

Don't you think there should be some kind of adversaries?

Something that they need to do but which is hard for them to do?

Because i sincerely do.

I think that nobody should be handed end game rewards for free, just because they managed to join a big corp, all the while failing at literally everything there is to do in this game.

There must be some kind of balance, as in rock-paper-scissors.

As in:

* Mega corp beats smaller corp (strength in numbers, no natural adversaries)

* Smaller corp beats tiny/solo (strength in numbers)

* Tiny corp / solo beats mega corp (guerilla tactics to counteract megas not having natural adversaries)

It cannot be allowed that there is literally nothing to fear for mega corps.

There needs to be *something* that they have to be very, very afraid of.

Heck, lets have an invincible NPC always go for the strongest corp there is and destroy them, back to square one.

Give them some kind of cosmetic reward / leaderboard fame for becoming so strong that the beast came after them.

If a new player has no chance to ever get past the current #1 corp, there won't be many people wanting to join the game.

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3 minutes ago, user1 said:

Ok.

Do you think that there should be something that can give mega corps a run for their money?

Or should we simply let them do whatever they want, once they reach the member cap?

Don't you think there should be some kind of adversaries?

Something that they need to do but which is hard for them to do?

Because i sincerely do.

I think that nobody should be handed end game rewards for free, just because they managed to join a big corp, all the while failing at literally everything there is to do in this game.

There must be some kind of balance, as in rock-paper-scissors.

As in:

* Mega corp beats smaller corp (strength in numbers, no natural adversaries)

* Smaller corp beats tiny/solo (strength in numbers)

* Tiny corp / solo beats mega corp (guerilla tactics to counteract megas not having natural adversaries)

It cannot be allowed that there is literally nothing to fear for mega corps.

There needs to be *something* that they have to be very, very afraid of.

Heck, lets have an invincible NPC always go for the strongest corp there is and destroy them, back to square one.

Give them some kind of cosmetic reward / leaderboard fame for becoming so strong that the beast came after them.

If a new player has no chance to ever get past the current #1 corp, there won't be many people wanting to join the game.

Megas vs Megas but it turns into a huge alliance vs alliance thing but they just cheat and then it's who is better at cheating.

~Lotus

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They could just keep the PvE server and then maybe add into the PvP server with some PvE areas. Server would need to be wiped due to all the cheating on PvP to make it fair for anyone new coming in

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9 hours ago, user1 said:

Make it so that you can't lose your stuff when you're not logged in and more people might be inclined to play pvp.

I know i would, but i will never accept having to rebuild my ship every single fucking day just because a bunch of 50-something shit-for-brains found the hiding spot for my schooner.

I'd love to do pvp, but losing my ship because of player vs nothing is mind-boggingly stupid.

Also, where is the fucking incentive to keep corp size small?

Where is the mechanism that would allow a smaller company to succeed, or even just barely survive?

There must be a way for small corps to seriously hurt mega corps!

Idk maybe make them have exponential upkeep, scaling with corp size?

This. Devs, how long have i been screaming for proper incentives!? Give the megas proper risk rewards and scale upkeep to give some kind of advantage to smalls

Its ok if my boat is immune to dmg when im not online. Its ok if my body logs out and isnt in game when im not online. Its not hurting the game if my walls are x100000 defense when no one in company is logged in. No one, except tolano, enjoys any aspect of the meta of offlining.

Ive been stealing ships off of freeports all week. Its not even a little fair to the other guys, but they are chineese and likely cheating anyways.

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7 hours ago, Lotus said:

Why would they add a penalty for grouping? It's an MMO -_-

~Lotus

Its not a penalty its an incentive. 75 people are exponentially stronger than 20 people. The reward is being farr stronger, the risk is having to spend more time in upkeep. 

Vs

The reward is not havimg as much upkeep, but aleays being weaker.

This is proven game logic. Tried and tested.

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