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Whitehawk

When a company splits

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Hey people this is just a view,but here goes.Me and another player started a company together on eu puplic pve(his idea to merge,not mine)and he also didn't want to be owner.So we start a company and a few pple join etc,but me and this guy who is admin have never had the same outlook on playing.So obviously we disagree.Maybe cos im old and cant be bothered but when i fall out about something i don't go around bad mouthing the other party to anyone who will listen.Unfortunately for me not all people are equal in this.Anyway things have come to a head and he now wants to leave,I said he didn't have to but he wants to.Problem is hes threatened to badmouth me to everyone(very petty)but anyway I have no way of giving him all his stuff back,and I seriously don't want it.Now that is in my opinion gonna lead to resentment against me,when I don't even want his stuff.Isn't it time there was a way of parting amicably in this game?because this puts me off of companies alltogether.There must be a mechanic that can be implemented so that both parties can walk away unscathed,an in doing so less affected and inclined to give up.I'd like to hear what other pple think on this.many thanks for your time

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You can't give him any ships. You can however put resources, gold, etc in a resource chest and leave it unlocked. He can then transfer the stuff to his own resource box once he leaves and makes his own nearby to hold while he finds where he is going. You can do the same with tames. Just unclaim them in front of him. The structures and ships are whoever ends up as owner of the company though. They instituted those changes way back under the old claim system where before if you had people leave the  different flags would revert to whoever had laid them down ending up with some interesting results.

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Yeh,i'll wait till he cools down and try to rationally give him as much back as I can,even though I will still be considered the tyrant i'm sure,I'ts more the animosity that this sort of thing causes that annoys me though.It does put me back in mind of playing solo again,which is unfortunate for an mmo.thx for the reply.

 

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You can also give him any tames he got by unclaiming the tames and it's likely in the next few patches that we might be able to unclaim ships as well.

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well problem now is,he wants me to make him admin so he can unclaim tames himself,trouble is he's threatened to cause me as much trouble as he can to stop me from getting more members But he wont take no for an answer,I cant trust him as admin,but i dont want to boot him and leave him with nothing.He's also getting quite disturbing in his mannerisms and accusing me of ruining his life,yes seriously because i wont make him admin.This company lark is starting to go beyond a joke tbh.I play to relax not to take abuse.Makes me wanna quit and just play solo games again.I've only ever seen this sort of thing happen to others,I guess I now know what it's like.

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Giving him admin gives him all sorts of power to do dastardly deeds. When faced with a problem child having a tantrum, do not hand them a gun. The crew I have now are all older, mature gamers here for the fun and we have little to no drama, but I had an earlier company at the start that had one of these drama queens in it. You offered to help him continue his journey, he is not taking you up on the offer. Kick him to the curb. If he causes anymore drama that constitutes griefing, screenshot it and fill out a ticket for the developers to look at. Don't come here to name and shame, they don't like that so much. But those that try to ruin gameplay for others are finding out that the developers eventually do get around to smacking their tender, little bottoms when they act out.

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Thx for reply,I have no intention of naming and shaming them,its not the way I am(even though they've just been going round the server doing it to me),but you're right and I should have nipped this in the bud as it started tbh, I play 5 mmos with clans etc,and have never encountered this sort of thing directly, before now,,the crazy thing is apart from this its a great area for friendliness,and I want my main base to stay here really.but I live and learn.thx again

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4 hours ago, Whitehawk said:

well problem now is,he wants me to make him admin so he can unclaim tames himself,trouble is he's threatened to cause me as much trouble as he can to stop me from getting more members But he wont take no for an answer,I cant trust him as admin,but i dont want to boot him and leave him with nothing.He's also getting quite disturbing in his mannerisms and accusing me of ruining his life,yes seriously because i wont make him admin.This company lark is starting to go beyond a joke tbh.I play to relax not to take abuse.Makes me wanna quit and just play solo games again.I've only ever seen this sort of thing happen to others,I guess I now know what it's like.

I never trust people that demand admin I give it when I feel people need it to do things not because they just want it. What does he need admin for? He can't be in the tribe and unclaim then reclaim tames. To me it seems he is going to just make a mess. I would remove him and then offer him his stuff ASAP rather than letting it drag on and cause headache for others in the tribe. There's never a good time to do stuff like that and it sounds like what he is doing is causing the game to not be fun for you. It's one of the crappy parts about being the leader but if he's being irrational he becomes a threat to everybody in the tribe's stuff and that just isn't worth it.

~Lotus

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Its like Lotus said, he dont need admin to claim/unclaim tames. Everything what he wants, he can do it with a normal rank.

When you dont trust him snymore just a tip: Dont allow him to demolish structures. I seen it on a another company........

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As admin, you are in a position to dictate terms to him, rather than the other way around. You don't have to be a jerk about it (I can already gather from your posts that you wouldn't be), but make clear to him that you have decided what you are willing to do to accomodate his exit and that the matter is not up for debate. People like the sort of person you're describing aren't the sort that if you do what they want everything ends up fine. Be firm and understand you're never going to be able to control whether he chooses to badmouth you to others and unless he gets everything he wants, which won't be reasonable, this is likely going to happen anyway. So draw your line in the sand and let him deal with it. Unknown's analogy to temper tantruming children is apt, treat the situation with that mindset and gl.

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39 minutes ago, boomervoncannon said:

As admin, you are in a position to dictate terms to him, rather than the other way around. You don't have to be a jerk about it (I can already gather from your posts that you wouldn't be), but make clear to him that you have decided what you are willing to do to accomodate his exit and that the matter is not up for debate. People like the sort of person you're describing aren't the sort that if you do what they want everything ends up fine. Be firm and understand you're never going to be able to control whether he chooses to badmouth you to others and unless he gets everything he wants, which won't be reasonable, this is likely going to happen anyway. So draw your line in the sand and let him deal with it. Unknown's analogy to temper tantruming children is apt, treat the situation with that mindset and gl.

This is all good and great, wonderful advice but it doesn't change the fact the game needs a way to tell the difference between 

Guild Property and Personal Property

Guild Tames and Personal Tames 

etc etc....

The current communist state we are stuck in currently really is lacking and a more robust system of ownership would be greatly appreciated!!!

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1 minute ago, Sulfurblade said:

This is all good and great, wonderful advice but it doesn't change the fact the game needs a way to tell the difference between 

Guild Property and Personal Property

Guild Tames and Personal Tames 

etc etc....

The current communist state we are stuck in currently really is lacking and a more robust system of ownership would be greatly appreciated!!!

The inability to unclaim or gift ships seems problematic, but I can tell you with strong certainty what will happen if a "more robust" system of ownership were introduced that allowed members of companies to personally own things and limit even company members access to them. It will lead in short order to a mindset of nearly everything being personally owned and people thinking even within a company of "mine" and "yours". In the long term, this will hinder company development and cohesiveness more than help. Solo players will always want to play solo and can do so, but more private and personalized ownership of property by individuals within guilds tends to create more drama than it mitigates. I say this based on 15 years of MMO play in guilds that had both types of systems in place.

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6 minutes ago, boomervoncannon said:

The inability to unclaim or gift ships seems problematic, but I can tell you with strong certainty what will happen if a "more robust" system of ownership were introduced that allowed members of companies to personally own things and limit even company members access to them. It will lead in short order to a mindset of nearly everything being personally owned and people thinking even within a company of "mine" and "yours". In the long term, this will hinder company development and cohesiveness more than help. Solo players will always want to play solo and can do so, but more private and personalized ownership of property by individuals within guilds tends to create more drama than it mitigates. I say this based on 15 years of MMO play in guilds that had both types of systems in place.

There is nothing at all wrong with that type of thinking!!!!

The thinking that there is something wrong with it and the only correct type of thinking is utopian communism is the Problem...

If you want a Utopian Communist style group then you get like minded people together and make it so... But for use that Want OUR OWN elephant and ship and house seperate from our guild then there is nothing wrong with that if the guild has a like mind.....

 

Lets not limit the style of play lets provide the tools to allow all styles of play!

Edited by Sulfurblade

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The OP's problem person reminds me of a guy that insided us pre wipe.  Wanted ownership of the company, temporarily, to do some, "testing".  When I refused to give it to him, he killed us all in our sleep and disbanded the company, he had admin.  In retrospect, I should have removed admin from him, but, I just couldn't/didn't see a grown man acting the way he did by killing us all.  

 

Do Not give him admin for any reason.  Like Lotus said, boot him and give him what things you want immediately.

I hope you have claimed the island you are on, because, I'd get ready for griefing.

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If he asks again, here's what you do:

Kick him out of the company. Knock him out. Put him in a cage. Forcefeed him. Repeat until he uninstalls.

Do NOT him admin rights whatever you do. Just get rid of him and give him exactly nothing. He is trying to screw you over. 

If he complains, you simply give the universal retort: "Dude, Pirates."

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I feel the core of these issues is the pvp base ruleset and no consideration towards the different playstyle of PVE
On PVP players behaving like assholes , stealing from the company , trashing etc is understandable..
but in pve , we would like to be able to offer players transport without forcing them into the company/alliance , to gift ships to new players , to have amicable splits in companies , hell give us the option to Tame/build for the company or for personal use..that way if you build a ship for the companies use , you cant complain if you cant take it with you..but if you join with a personal ship/build it for yourself , then the company might be able to use it , but its yours

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Tell him to get stuffed  and stop being a mouthy internet fiend, kick him, block him and your life will be much better. There ate yo many people in this game who think because they are anonymous they can act like assholes.

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7 hours ago, Sulfurblade said:

This is all good and great, wonderful advice but it doesn't change the fact the game needs a way to tell the difference between 

Guild Property and Personal Property

Guild Tames and Personal Tames 

etc etc....

The current communist state we are stuck in currently really is lacking and a more robust system of ownership would be greatly appreciated!!!

The game has that set up already the owner needs to set it that way. Maybe you should join a tribe that operates with that?

So the communist state you are stuck in is self inflicted.

7 hours ago, boomervoncannon said:

The inability to unclaim or gift ships seems problematic, but I can tell you with strong certainty what will happen if a "more robust" system of ownership were introduced that allowed members of companies to personally own things and limit even company members access to them. It will lead in short order to a mindset of nearly everything being personally owned and people thinking even within a company of "mine" and "yours". In the long term, this will hinder company development and cohesiveness more than help. Solo players will always want to play solo and can do so, but more private and personalized ownership of property by individuals within guilds tends to create more drama than it mitigates. I say this based on 15 years of MMO play in guilds that had both types of systems in place.

Exactly when people go into a tribe with a mine and yours mindset they are generally parasites to that group. They are in there for personal gain and want to use the tribe with minimal contribution.

 

4 hours ago, 8ball said:

The OP's problem person reminds me of a guy that insided us pre wipe.  Wanted ownership of the company, temporarily, to do some, "testing".  When I refused to give it to him, he killed us all in our sleep and disbanded the company, he had admin.  In retrospect, I should have removed admin from him, but, I just couldn't/didn't see a grown man acting the way he did by killing us all.  

 

Do Not give him admin for any reason.  Like Lotus said, boot him and give him what things you want immediately.

I hope you have claimed the island you are on, because, I'd get ready for griefing.

This is another reason why building on claimed islands should be set to allies only.

3 hours ago, Velius said:

If he asks again, here's what you do:

Kick him out of the company. Knock him out. Put him in a cage. Forcefeed him. Repeat until he uninstalls.

Do NOT him admin rights whatever you do. Just get rid of him and give him exactly nothing. He is trying to screw you over. 

If he complains, you simply give the universal retort: "Dude, Pirates."

Dollie wiped a company for doing that.

1 hour ago, Derfel said:

I feel the core of these issues is the pvp base ruleset and no consideration towards the different playstyle of PVE
On PVP players behaving like assholes , stealing from the company , trashing etc is understandable..
but in pve , we would like to be able to offer players transport without forcing them into the company/alliance , to gift ships to new players , to have amicable splits in companies , hell give us the option to Tame/build for the company or for personal use..that way if you build a ship for the companies use , you cant complain if you cant take it with you..but if you join with a personal ship/build it for yourself , then the company might be able to use it , but its yours

The game is PvP first then adapted to PvE until PvE becomes the dominant population it will always be this way. (Which sucks 😞 )

They are making it so you can unclaim ships they are just working out a few kinks with it because that is a very powerful mechanic to have in the game. With that you could set it up so somebody splitting off would not be that bad.

 

~Lotus

14 minutes ago, Daveroe said:

Tell him to get stuffed  and stop being a mouthy internet fiend, kick him, block him and your life will be much better. There ate yo many people in this game who think because they are anonymous they can act like assholes.

I wouldn't do that, unless you are a tyrant then sink his ship infront of him while the tribe watches to set an example. Seriously though don't do that.

Need to be firm but giving it helps to remain in good standing with everybody.

~Lotus

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just curious, but does the company management setting to allow personal ownership not work.

I would: 

1. Remove him immediately from the Company.

2. Provide him a box all of his personal equipment.

and optionally depending on your generosity and his attitude:

3. Add some provisions like food and water.

4. Offer to turn over all of his tames.

5. Provide in his box a shipyard, planks, sails some resources and other needed item so he can make a ship and sail away.

And finally:

6. Banish him from your island and not allow him to remain to cause further disruption.

7. Batten the hatches and weather the storm.

 

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15 hours ago, Sulfurblade said:

There is nothing at all wrong with that type of thinking!!!!

The thinking that there is something wrong with it and the only correct type of thinking is utopian communism is the Problem...

If you want a Utopian Communist style group then you get like minded people together and make it so... But for use that Want OUR OWN elephant and ship and house seperate from our guild then there is nothing wrong with that if the guild has a like mind.....

 

Lets not limit the style of play lets provide the tools to allow all styles of play!

No one is proposing communism, utopian or otherwise. Note that you are the one using that term, and I do not consider it a useful term in describing the problem I’m referring to, which is a common problem not limited to gaming called the free rider problem.  As Lotus has already addressed, the issue is one of people who give lip service to being part of a company, guild, etc. when what they are really looking for is a free ride. I have encountered this mentality enough times across enough games to be reasonably certain it would become an issue here. 

In a nutshell it is the problem of people who want all of the benefits of belonging to a guild and have access to guild resources while still designating things they want to consider personal and private “off limits” to others, even supposed guild mates. I have seen this behavior manifest itself repeatedly in otherwise reasonable players, who even use “guild” mats and resources to make or build ships, gear etc that they then want to consider private and earmarked for their personal use only. This inevitably leads to resentment from guild mates who have both equally selfish and less selfish approaches. As previously stated, I have seen this approach, initiated in good faith by well intentioned leaders including myself, lead time and time again to more headache and drama than otherwise found in a given group.

Edited by boomervoncannon

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5 hours ago, boomervoncannon said:

No one is proposing communism, utopian or otherwise. Note that you are the one using that term, and I do not consider it a useful term in describing the problem I’m referring to, which is a common problem not limited to gaming called the free rider problem.  As Lotus has already addressed, the issue is one of people who give lip service to being part of a company, guild, etc. when what they are really looking for is a free ride. I have encountered this mentality enough times across enough games to be reasonably certain it would become an issue here. 

In a nutshell it is the problem of people who want all of the benefits of belonging to a guild and have access to guild resources while still designating things they want to consider personal and private “off limits” to others, even supposed guild mates. I have seen this behavior manifest itself repeatedly in otherwise reasonable players, who even use “guild” mats and resources to make or build ships, gear etc that they then want to consider private and earmarked for their personal use only. This inevitably leads to resentment from guild mates who have both equally selfish and less selfish approaches. As previously stated, I have seen this approach, initiated in good faith by well intentioned leaders including myself, lead time and time again to more headache and drama than otherwise found in a given group.

And for people who are happy with there solo life who then get "Strongly Encouraged" or talked into Joining a guild that maybe part of there island or a larger neighbor who can't ally with them because of the limited alliance slots then finds out the guild he begrudgingly joined was comprised of people that he or she just doesn't mesh well with....

But now his home and ship and everything he has done in game including his tames are now the guilds and now all he wants to do is go his seperate way so he quits the guild to see he has lost it all....  I wonder how often this happens and then what does that player do???  Restart, quit the game entirely go to a different server and start over?   Seems silly that guys home and ship and tames are so easily separated from him just bye accepting a guild invite!

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3 minutes ago, Sulfurblade said:

And for people who are happy with there solo life who then get "Strongly Encouraged" or talked into Joining a guild that maybe part of there island or a larger neighbor who can't ally with them because of the limited alliance slots then finds out the guild he begrudgingly joined was comprised of people that he or she just doesn't mesh well with....

But now his home and ship and everything he has done in game including his tames are now the guilds and now all he wants to do is go his seperate way so he quits the guild to see he has lost it all....  I wonder how often this happens and then what does that player do???  Restart, quit the game entirely go to a different server and start over?   Seems silly that guys home and ship and tames are so easily separated from him just bye accepting a guild invite!

There is no perfect answer that I’m aware of. All I can tell you is that the problem you describe is the problem of single individuals who made a choice of their own free will and were aware beforehand of the consequences of merging into a guild. The difficulties presented by the free rider problem affect not just individuals but whole organizations, are less obvious on the front end, and in my experience often lead to the breakup of whole guilds and encourage behavior that is not socially healthy or productive.

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25 minutes ago, Sulfurblade said:

And for people who are happy with there solo life who then get "Strongly Encouraged" or talked into Joining a guild that maybe part of there island or a larger neighbor who can't ally with them because of the limited alliance slots then finds out the guild he begrudgingly joined was comprised of people that he or she just doesn't mesh well with....

But now his home and ship and everything he has done in game including his tames are now the guilds and now all he wants to do is go his seperate way so he quits the guild to see he has lost it all....  I wonder how often this happens and then what does that player do???  Restart, quit the game entirely go to a different server and start over?   Seems silly that guys home and ship and tames are so easily separated from him just bye accepting a guild invite!

Maybe that person should ally and play with the others to make sure they mesh well with the tribe. I mean I would hook somebody up with whatever they needed if they wanted to leave but I haven't had that happen yet.

The thing is the person should also talk to the leader of the tribe about things like how they feel rather than just rage quit. Most leaders of tribes are pretty cool. Some are not but most I have come across are.

If the person is happy with the solo life then why would they give up the solo life that just doesn't make sense to me.

~Lotus

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If he is bad mouthing you, he is not leaving amicably.  So he should be thankful for whatever you give him.  I would boot him immediately.  Tell him to set up a small base nearby to hold tames, and storage boxes.

He places down a trough, and you take his animals there, and unclaim them.  You transport items for him, and place them in those unlocked boxes.   If he has a ship, you will need to sail it to another island, where he sets up, and allow him to steal it.  Then just stay away from it, so he can complete the steal.   They really need to allow us to unclaim ships.

Now, what about a base?  They could code this.  Use the old claim flags that would transfer property.  Alter it a bit.  The owner places the flag, and selects to unclaim everything in the circle.  The new owner walks up to the flag, and hits E, to claim everything.  This would actually simplify this, because it could be coded to work with tames and ships, also, making the divorce much less painful, and less drawn out.   It should only be the owner who can do this, however, though some may want to allow their Admins to do it.  Maybe it could be an individually applied permission, that doesn't come with Admin permissions.  This way you can have enough admins, without letting all of them give away the whole company.  You might need ten admins, but want just one or two other people to be able to do this.

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4 hours ago, Sulfurblade said:

And for people who are happy with there solo life who then get "Strongly Encouraged" or talked into Joining a guild that maybe part of there island or a larger neighbor who can't ally with them because of the limited alliance slots then finds out the guild he begrudgingly joined was comprised of people that he or she just doesn't mesh well with....

But now his home and ship and everything he has done in game including his tames are now the guilds and now all he wants to do is go his seperate way so he quits the guild to see he has lost it all....  I wonder how often this happens and then what does that player do???  Restart, quit the game entirely go to a different server and start over?   Seems silly that guys home and ship and tames are so easily separated from him just bye accepting a guild invite!

annoyingly it also works the other way , im actually joining whitehawk's company , but all the stuff that i made beforehand will be lost due to my char renaming his "solo company" from his name to another...
We cant merge as that kicks everyone but him and I from the reformed company (different timezones issue) and the alliance slots are ridiculously small..
its come to the point where I'm slowly tranfering him all my stuff , and sinking my galleon/brigs to then join up with bugger all..
not a well thought out clan system

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