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Cannon Cart/Tame Balance

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So first off I know there is no way to make everyone happy so some will call these suggestions stupid or point out flaws but no suggestion will ever be perfect for everyone. I am also talking for the perspective of colonies which is geared towards smaller to mid sized companies.

(TLDR: Tames pulling a cart should get a significant speed debuff and enemy tames hit with a bola should get a timed speed debuff to balance ground pvp. Cannons on carts should have the same 20 minute cooldown timer as ones placed on land once they make landfall on enemy islands and island owners should get a global notification if enemy cannon carts make landfall on your island similar to the notification if ppl start building on your island to counter the speed in which you can land and be blown into someone's base.)

I think the majority would agree as for ground pvp, in general, tames win the fight even more so a tame pulling a cart with a swivel gun. There is really nothing a kitted person(s) can do to realistically have a chance at winning. Yes, you can try and get high and snipe or there are those ppl who are insane snipers but even if you are insanely good at sniping you still stand no chance if you cannot get high because the tames easily run you down which and it is not always very viable considering the ridiculous angles/rocks tames can get over. Now, obviously the rebuttal is "well just use your own tames then to fight back". Well problems with that are 1. if you are solo when pvp is engaged (not uncommon for small or even mid size companies as even if others are on they maybe out sailing and cannot get back immediately) you cannot use a swivel cannon cart and if the enemy has one you lose, period. You will get shot off your tame by grapeshot or burned off with fire and then your tame dies. 2. Ppl may not be specd into taming and can neither ride or even tame tames to fight back, again not uncommon for smaller mid sized tribe as there are a lot of skill trees. 3. It gears the game to put even more focus on having top tier or bred tames which the developers do not want this to be (I agree with the developers on this if I wanna breed fighting tames Ill go back to ark).

My suggestion is pretty simple, a tame with a cart equipped gets a 75%-50% speed debuff (or some percent that makes their speed less then human speed, I say less then human considering their stam is superior). This make it more viable for players to be able to get out of the reach of tames or the swivel cannons range. It also makes it so riders are more easily sniped off. Also makes a land mounted ballista somewhat possible as the tames would be slower and easier to hit (still prolly ridiculously hard but stilla point).  Now though a pretty simple counter to that is have a tame with no cart on it support the carted tame as they still easily beat out kitted players on average. Well that is where my second suggestion comes into play which is have a bola that hits an enemy tame apply a speed debuff for 1-2 minutes (not as drastic as the cart speed debuff but still enough to make evading them easier, say like 30%). Having the bola actually bola the tame and knock the rider off I feel would just be completely neutralizing tames which I don't think is right, want them still to be a weapon just not the only weapon.  This puts a kitted player and a tame rider at least on somewhat even footing as the kitted player still has to hit the tame with a bola and then kill the player or tame but it does not completely nullify the tame.

That above mainly addresses the swivel cart and also tames in general there is also the issue of the cannon cart vs structures/raiding buildings. So first off you currently have pretty much all the above problems of the tames in general since you will be riding a tame. However, with a cannon cart you can so easily destroy structures that the whole combat phase window with colonies does not even matter, even if they reduce the window as some ppl are asking it does not matter. Currently, it takes 18 medium cannon balls to destroy 1 stone wall (doors even less). What the problem really is that you can get those 18 cannon balls off in just over 1 minute. Literally one 1 minute from your first shot and you are a in a 1 layer base. Even a more honeycombed 6 layer base you are in under 10 minutes. Even if you are on your island and from the time you here the first shot have 1 minute (assuming 1 layer) to try and stop them which is ridiculous. Also, for those you saying "well you would see the enemy ship coming up" lets be real, unless you have somone literally sitting in a spotting tower 24/7 (which is totally unrealistic) its pretty easy to go unnoticed. For those of you who say that's what puckles are for, puckle range 27 foundation medium cannon range 85-+ depending on terrain. So yes, if you are on your island you will hear them shooting but it really is just buying time so you can mount a defense which can more easily be accomplished with just simple walls/gates as there is no maintenance cost. However, again even 6 layers of structures can be gone in under 10 minutes so if you are out sailing (which is the core of the game) trips are easily more then 10 minutes at a time, and sure you can check tribe log to get notified but again unless you are checking legit every 10 minutes or just staring at it while out ppl can be in your base before you can even turn your boat around.

My suggestion is two fold, make cannon carts get the same timer as new cannons placed on land (currently 20 minutes in PTR). Even as an owner of the island I have to wait 20 minutes for a new cannon to be placed, an enemy cannon cart should have to wait that long as well. This helps reduce the ability to land and be in someone base in literally minutes before they can even react.  The second would be a global message to the island owner when a cart makes landfall on your island, if you are going to get this type of notification when anyone builds on your island I feel its not unrealistic to let you know someone has brought weapons onto your island to raid you. Coupled with the 20 minute cannon cooldown again it give you time to actually mount a defense.  

Again these are from the perspective of colonies server which is for small to mid sized companies and really want the pvp to more ship v ship on the seas. These changes can easily be kept out of Empire which is geared more for your traditional high risk high reward open pvp style, as you can more easily counter tames with higher numbers and the probability of you having ppl constantly on your islands to raise the alarm if you are being attacked is much higher.        

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Or make it so that you actually need to take the canon down from the cart and install it on the floor. Giving a timer.

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1 hour ago, Back Stabbath said:

Tames should not be involved in pvp in any capacity imo.

I tend to agree with this. Tames are rather crazy in this game. Too much of the ARK heritage of them being too effective.

Riding a horse, sure. Tamed attack wolves I can see. Bears are a little more iffy. Wooden carts carrying cannons across wild terrain at high speeds is just crazy. Would be snapping axles and breaking wheels all over the place. There's a reason armies used to move so much slower than people could walk. Getting artillery to the front line was a slow and arduous undertaking prior to combustion engines and tracked vehicles. 

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39 minutes ago, Lifedragn said:

I tend to agree with this. Tames are rather crazy in this game. Too much of the ARK heritage of them being too effective.

Riding a horse, sure. Tamed attack wolves I can see. Bears are a little more iffy. Wooden carts carrying cannons across wild terrain at high speeds is just crazy. Would be snapping axles and breaking wheels all over the place. There's a reason armies used to move so much slower than people could walk. Getting artillery to the front line was a slow and arduous undertaking prior to combustion engines and tracked vehicles. 

But yes i agree with everything you said but imagine in the RL version of Atlas here, how much it would be cool where everyone jumps off the ship and runs in nekkid??

Because that's what i see atlas becoming, more and more each time... The melee is so buggy infested pile of junk you would rather use tames etc...

Basically, allowing the devs to not fix the melee part of the game because they feel tames will cover up the problems.

Edited by Sneakydude

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Agree with the points here. How about this "quick" fix: the ship cannons (medium) can't be mounted any longer on a cart. Create an extra cannon just for cart: Small Cart Cannon and limit it's range so puckles are viable. Like that the ship-cannons wont be affected by any nerf and they could try diffrent numbers for the cart cannon and tweak it. It either uses the medium cannon balls or small cannon balls. Raiding with bear would still stay very viable, but not as brainless OP as it is now.

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9 minutes ago, Sinappia said:

Agree with the points here. How about this "quick" fix: the ship cannons (medium) can't be mounted any longer on a cart. Create an extra cannon just for cart: Small Cart Cannon and limit it's range so puckles are viable. Like that the ship-cannons wont be affected by any nerf and they could try diffrent numbers for the cart cannon and tweak it. It either uses the medium cannon balls or small cannon balls. Raiding with bear would still stay very viable, but not as brainless OP as it is now.

Not bad as well. That would make raiders actually having to tank puckles, which I like.

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16 hours ago, Sneakydude said:

But yes i agree with everything you said but imagine in the RL version of Atlas here, how much it would be cool where everyone jumps off the ship and runs in nekkid??

Because that's what i see atlas becoming, more and more each time... The melee is so buggy infested pile of junk you would rather use tames etc...

Basically, allowing the devs to not fix the melee part of the game because they feel tames will cover up the problems.

Yeah, I really would like to see the melee work better.

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Just watched a video on reddit of the new crab tame in pvp. Was laughably stupid .

They are really doing a great job at breaking the game . Making it hard to bother logging in if they are going to continue in the Ark shit direction.

It's unfortunate. Rather than focusing on pvp mechanics they are just adding tames at this point . 

 

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1 hour ago, Back Stabbath said:

Just watched a video on reddit of the new crab tame in pvp. Was laughably stupid .

They are really doing a great job at breaking the game . Making it hard to bother logging in if they are going to continue in the Ark shit direction.

It's unfortunate. Rather than focusing on pvp mechanics they are just adding tames at this point . 

 

It will be nerfed in no time 😉 they are pretty responsive in this way.

Edited by Willard

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Yeah something needs to be done here, I made a post, saying they should just increase gun dmg vs tames in pvp alot

Like 2-3 times as much so that you can fight them. I wouldn't be opposed to slowing carts down, but that's not the only problem, tigers and lions are still going to wreck the ground pvp, If you just nerf the carts. 

A blunderbuss is the highest dmg weapon atm at 90 dmg. 

Up that damage to 300% and tames become fightable and killable 

Double pistol, then swap and hit with blunderbuss is the most dmg you can do quickly. 

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