New rules...possible griefing.

[Captain Jack Shadow 488]

OK, so the island has a Governor, now.  He is responsible for upkeep, but he has taxes to help.  Great.  Now the bad part.

Your enemy can build on your property.  The obvious problem is that they could get a castle built within mortar range of your base.  OK, so now you have to spam pillars to keep them far enough away.  Great...more upkeep, and more lag because of structure spam.

So here is where the griefing comes in.

During the off hours, when the Governors are not online, what is to stop somebody from spamming the island with structures, to run the Governor out of resources in the bank.  Now, instead of using resources on the island, that would give resources to the bank, they bring it from off the island.

This is how Meta gamers think.  We have seen this.  They do everything the code allows.  Like sinking ships with weight, or crew.

[gnihar 111]

14 minutes ago, Captain Jack Shadow said:

OK, so the island has a Governor, now.  He is responsible for upkeep, but he has taxes to help.  Great.  Now the bad part.

Your enemy can build on your property.  The obvious problem is that they could get a castle built within mortar range of your base.  OK, so now you have to spam pillars to keep them far enough away.  Great...more upkeep, and more lag because of structure spam.

So here is where the griefing comes in.

During the off hours, when the Governors are not online, what is to stop somebody from spamming the island with structures, to run the Governor out of resources in the bank.  Now, instead of using resources on the island, that would give resources to the bank, they bring it from off the island.

This is how Meta gamers think.  We have seen this.  They do everything the code allows.  Like sinking ships with weight, or crew.

That is why island owners would have 12 hours to radial menu delete any buildings they do not want on their island.

I have little faith in even this new claim system, and consider lawless to be by far more clean.

If there even will be the option to live on lawless in the new system - which I hope against all odds.

[Bullet Force 151]

1 hour ago, Captain Jack Shadow said:

OK, so the island has a Governor, now.  He is responsible for upkeep, but he has taxes to help.  Great.  Now the bad part.

Your enemy can build on your property.  The obvious problem is that they could get a castle built within mortar range of your base.  OK, so now you have to spam pillars to keep them far enough away.  Great...more upkeep, and more lag because of structure spam.

So here is where the griefing comes in.

During the off hours, when the Governors are not online, what is to stop somebody from spamming the island with structures, to run the Governor out of resources in the bank.  Now, instead of using resources on the island, that would give resources to the bank, they bring it from off the island.

This is how Meta gamers think.  We have seen this.  They do everything the code allows.  Like sinking ships with weight, or crew.

"Griefing" lol that buzzword again? If someone did that it would be a legitimate tactical play by a PVP player not by a "griefer" nor a "troll" nor a "toxic player".

[Mike L 71]

I dont think structures "your enemy" places are going to eat anything out of your tax bank, wouldn't make sense and would have to be patched pretty quickly anyways, so that doesnt worry me much. 

I'm pretty sure your still going to be able to set it so they cant build, or only allies can build anyways. 

[Captain Jack Shadow 488]

1 minute ago, Mike L said:

I dont think structures "your enemy" places are going to eat anything out of your tax bank, wouldn't make sense and would have to be patched pretty quickly anyways, so that doesnt worry me much. 

I'm pretty sure your still going to be able to set it so they cant build, or only allies can build anyways. 

What's the difference between an enemy and somebody who just wants to set up shop on your island?

Edited March 19, 2019 by Captain Jack Shadow

[Bullslayer 7]

Believe the new system is allowing factions not allied with you to mark them selves as neutral? Enemies wouldnt really care about this i feel.

[Enki Anunnaki 240]

i think individual companies will be responsible for their own buildings upkeep. i think the landlord is specifically responsible for the claim upkeep of the island itself, and obviously, his own structures.

[Ginja_Ninja 1]

1 hour ago, Bullet Force said:

"Griefing" lol that buzzword again? If someone did that it would be a legitimate tactical play by a PVP player not by a "griefer" nor a "troll" nor a "toxic player".

The Devs have a vision for how they want the game to be played. Most understand how a game should be played. Meta gamers look for weaknesses in the code, to exploit to their advantage. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done. For instance, if a bug allows you to get under the mesh, it doesn't mean you should do so. If a bug allows you to get behind a wall in a building, and shoot through the wall, without being hit from return fire, doesn't mean you should do it. In fact, these kinds of things can be made against the rules, even if the code allows it to be done. I do not believe that the Devs want this to be a tactic. They are trying to find ways to limit structure spam, and their idea behind the taxes and upkeep is part of that. It wasn't meant to be a tool for another company to run the tax bank out of resources. If you do that, yes you are in fact, griefing/exploiting. However, it is up to the Devs to code the game such that this is not possible. This is what the OP is pointing out...that it is a weakness in the mechanics, and that the Devs will need to account for the fact that people will do it.

[Captain Jack Shadow 488]

3 minutes ago, Enki Anunnaki said:

i think individual companies will be responsible for their own buildings upkeep. i think the landlord is specifically responsible for the claim upkeep of the island itself, and obviously, his own structures.

The way we read it is that the Landlord gets the taxes, and thus is responsible for all of the upkeep on all structures on the island.  Thus, he also has the ability to demolish your structures on the island.  We see this as an attempt to have the player base moderate the structure spam on the island, thus keeping structure spam in check, and thus improving frame rates/lag.

I am not sure this will work as well as just setting a structure limit.  Even better would have been to just make each group responsible for upkeep, and make the upkeep increase exponentially with each structure added, thus making people self moderate.  At some point, you couldn't afford the upkeep on what you built.

[Chucksteak 279]

16 hours ago, Bullet Force said:

"Griefing" lol that buzzword again? If someone did that it would be a legitimate tactical play by a PVP player not by a "griefer" nor a "troll" nor a "toxic player".

I actually had to look this up as I've never had to define a "Griefer" to anyone before.

As it is, the devs are trying (as best as they can), to curb the foundation spam, to the point where Island owners can demo or destroy them and are encouraged to do so. To me, foundation spamming is an unintended way to play the game at this point. Therefore pillar spamming an "enemy" Island would be griefing by definition.

1. Pillar spam deliberately irritates and harasses other players in an unintended way. The devs do not intend for Island owners to be impaired in their ownership while not in a raid window.

2. This action by you is not being deterred by the penalties implemented against this. You don't care if they demo your pillar, and you don't care about any upkeep cost to building the pillar.

3. This one is an assumption on my part. The person spamming pillars is probably getting pleasure from the act of annoying others.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

"A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.[2] This creates a strong division between griefing and cheating, since cheating is done with intent of winning the game and thus is discouraged by in-game penalties.

 

Methods of griefing differ from game to game. What might be considered griefing in one area of a game may even be an intended function or mechanic in another area. Common methods may include but are not limited to....

 

-CS

[Bullet Force 151]

On 3/20/2019 at 3:37 AM, Chucksteak said:

I actually had to look this up as I've never had to define a "Griefer" to anyone before.

As it is, the devs are trying (as best as they can), to curb the foundation spam, to the point where Island owners can demo or destroy them and are encouraged to do so. To me, foundation spamming is an unintended way to play the game at this point. Therefore pillar spamming an "enemy" Island would be griefing by definition.

1. Pillar spam deliberately irritates and harasses other players in an unintended way. The devs do not intend for Island owners to be impaired in their ownership while not in a raid window.

2. This action by you is not being deterred by the penalties implemented against this. You don't care if they demo your pillar, and you don't care about any upkeep cost to building the pillar.

3. This one is an assumption on my part. The person spamming pillars is probably getting pleasure from the act of annoying others.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

"A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.[2] This creates a strong division between griefing and cheating, since cheating is done with intent of winning the game and thus is discouraged by in-game penalties.

 

Methods of griefing differ from game to game. What might be considered griefing in one area of a game may even be an intended function or mechanic in another area. Common methods may include but are not limited to....

 

-CS

None of your definition fits what the OP was complaining about. Building on an enemy island either in preparation for a raid or to cripple their economy is a tactical play designed to help your team win.

[Chucksteak 279]

19 hours ago, Bullet Force said:

None of your definition fits what the OP was complaining about. Building on an enemy island either in preparation for a raid or to cripple their economy is a tactical play designed to help your team win.

Oh, my bad, I thought he was talking about pillar spam, not erecting fobs or the like.

[Kappinski 58]

Thats why it is good to have reasonable relationship with other companies on your island. They will tell you if something is odd but only if they think you are a good owner.
To the OP:
If you build something on their island in mortar range and it stands for more than 12 hours I wish you good luck. Because then your base will be in range of their mortars aswell but they are the only people on the island that can fire them outside of war time. If you wan't to use your mortars on them you HAVE TO use a war token and by declaring war on an island you inform the whole island that you will come hours prior to the time where the war rules apply. So good luck hiding a base in mortar range for 12 hours.
If you are able to talk to them and betray them and they let you build a castle in mortar range and you stab them in the back. They deserve it!

Another thing I think is serious are underwater structures.
As a landowner I don't want to check the whole coast underwater every 12 hours if there are some pillars.
If someone builds stuff that is threatening me and I miss the 12 hours. Fine! Get the cannons ready instead. But thats impossible underwater.
Now you could say that they have to pay upkeep for the pillars. But how is it paid? From a ressource box? What does them stop to build this underwater aswell?
You can swim miles underwater with ressources to fill it up just to make sure that your damn pillars will stay in front of their ships.
This will be the first thing that I test on the test servers.

[DilBert 42]

On 3/18/2019 at 9:47 PM, Mike L said:

I dont think structures "your enemy" places are going to eat anything out of your tax bank, wouldn't make sense and would have to be patched pretty quickly anyways, so that doesnt worry me much. 

I'm pretty sure your still going to be able to set it so they cant build, or only allies can build anyways. 

Nos such settings with the new claim system. Owner can only destroy those they do not want there. 

[Captain Jack Shadow 488]

My only point was to make the Devs aware that some people will find this weakness and exploit it.  It is up to them to design the mechanics to make the system work as they intend.  I think the destruction window should be longer than 12 hours.  At least 24 hours should be the norm.  They could also make it such that structures do not cost any upkeep, until the destruction window has passed.

I do see problems with this.  The Owner is going to have to be not just the owner of the company who owns the island, but also anyone the owner designates as having this destruction power.  I mean what if you can't log into the game for a week, maybe due to an accident, and you are in the hospital, or you lose power for a few days...which does happen to us after hurricanes, sometimes.  So you finally get back in, and there are a bunch of structures you didn't want to be there.  So I have to believe the Devs understand this, and are going to allow the owner to be more than one person.  Anyone who doesn't trust his people enough to give them the power, will have to deal with structures they don't want, if they didn't get to it in time to demolish it.   But 12 hours is not enough.  Imagine somebody places a structure right after all of your people log off for the night.  You sleep for 6 to 9 hours on average...most people...then you get up, prepare for your day, and then go to work, or school for several hours.  You log on, and find that some structures are now no longer able to be demolished because they were there for 12 hours.

Basically, I think a longer timer, and structures not drawing from the tax bank until after the timer, would eliminate this being a griefing tool.