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Lotus

Why claims are needed.

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Hello Forums ūüėĄ

 

I keep basically posting the same thing over and over so I figured I would just make my own thread. A lot of people I have talked to were basically done with Atlas when the announcement of claims being removed from PvE. Some looked to PvP some to other games. The fundamental problem PvE land claims was the system in place not claims themselves. The new system will make it so the whole island will be claimed and maintained by 1 group based on the island size. This is copy pasted from my response to another thread.

I'ma just pull out some numbers here for the sake of example. Lets say there's 5 types of islands and the resources are more than enough for the number of people it takes to claim it.

level 1 = 1 points (1-4 players)

level 2 = 3 points (3-8 players)

Level 3 = 5 points (5-12 players)

Level 4 = 10 points (10-20 players)

Level 5 = 15 points (This is one of those big bastard islands with like 2-3 kinds of metal, wood, thatch, fiber, it's got some saps, oils, animals, maybe fresh water.)

So you have 15 people minimum for one of the huge islands. Lets say the cost of having your second claim doubles the number of points. So to have 2 level 5 islands you need 45 members atleast and that doesn't account for whatever the upkeep cost is. Currently the game has like 800ish? islands (I'm not counting them all) 500ish are claimable. Add 200 new islands you have 700. (Currently more islands than players XD) Lets really get crazy with the math and say 25 islands can hold 150 people (that is 6 people per island) So 6 people on 700 islands is 4,200 people (which is more than I have ever seen on PvE).

Which this system isn't perfect but if this is what they implement (Really want a PTR) I think it will be way better than what is in place now. The lawless idea will just lead to people griefing each other off islands.

 

End cut and paste ūüėĄ

A lot of people have had some really bad trolling done in lawless because people can build everywhere. So if somebody builds a gate at your legendary shipyard (cause I heard caliber of shipyard is going to make your boats level higher basically like a higher level tame) and now your full blueprint galley is at the mercy of 1 group of trolls that just keeps repairing their building. We also feared somebody building their house on top of the metal nodes where we decide to make our base (metal is super important for PvE progression when deciding a main manufacturing location). I've heard of a guy that followed another guy and built a shack around a guys bear so he could claim it in 7 days. I could go on and on. I could go on and on with all the stories I have heard. The point I am making is the game doesn't have enough GM staff. By having the players look out for the land as landlords they take some of the pressure off of the GM staff. The only way I could see around that would be more paid GM's which would mean they need a source of income, the game is still early access (small player base) so micro transactions won't be able to support that so it would have to be a monthly fee. I am not opposed to paying $10 a month to have active GM's (and by active I mean I want my problem resolved within an hour) to fix issues I am having. If they remove claims then 2-3 people with enough effort can cause a lot of problems for a tribe of any size.

 

~Lotus

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Hello,

In your scenario, how does it work when two companys merge ?

Best regards.

Albibak

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7 minutes ago, Albibak said:

Hello,

In your scenario, how does it work when two companys merge ?

Best regards.

Albibak

Flags don't merge in cause that could be exploited. You could toss your stuff to the side and go for a bigger island though.

 

~Lotus

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Posted (edited)

Of course you would say that, and of course you can justify your way of thinking with scare stories of things that happened on Lawless - you are one of the main people and tribes that enjoyed the previous claim system, you were constantly looking for renters and expanding your land. You would have been happy to continue with the old system no problem.

You aren't thinking about all the players who left the game as they were not happy under that system or couldn't find land. You don't understand why other players wouldn't want to play rent to you or anyone else, you don't understand why the population in lawless was far larger than claimed land due to not only being able to find land there despite the rampant griefing you think went on there, but also lack of taxes.

The whole landlord / serf concept has no place in PVE. Keep claims but limit them severely to just be a way to secure personal land to build, there's no need for anyone to owe / contribute anything to anyone else in PVE.

Edited by FruitBatCat
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23 minutes ago, FruitBatCat said:

The whole landlord / serf concept has no place in PVE. Keep claims but limit them severely to just be a way to secure personal land to build, there's no need for anyone to owe / contribute anything to anyone else in PVE. ÔĽŅ

I 100% agree with this opinion this is something that belongs in pvp but not pve if anywhere. Were here to have fun not to have to work for someone else to gain. This idea essentially leans towards making the game more of a job then somewhere to go relax and have fun.

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With the current system the landlord of an island can simply just destroy your stuff <if I am reading this right>. I liked it better when they were going to have NO claim flags.
I can honestly say I am waiting for Blackwood and will be making my own server rather than have all my hard work simply destroyed because someone wants what I have or thinks the section of beach I made a base on would be perfect for their cabana.

 

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I know u are a guy with alot of PVE experience in atlas.

But what u write is just hopes to be able to prevent ( by yourself) bad things to happen to you.

All you write i based on gosip and some bad incident some people (may) had. NO system will prevent that ever to happen.

Your dream is, to totally protect your "main base", have u thought about outposts (where other people will protect their "main island")?

Some Questions to the wannabe Landlords:

*Will you want a protected your outpost island too, when the upkeep is not to bad? How do you plan to handle island with bad Landlords?

*Will your Island be open for others, even tho it will increase upkeep?

*How will u find/destroy undermeshed pillars/foundations?

*Can u imagine that the nicer your island is, the more it becomes a target for trolls/griefers?

*Did you estimate how much effort it is to "protect" your Island from some dedicated griefers?

IT IS A DREAM!

The money stuff:

Why care about the company, their spending and earning.

I dont get player that paid for a product care about the producer of the product an d their future income. It is their job to keep the game atractive for new player (new money),  so if they have to employ a GM to keep the product going, they should do. 

Shifting responsibility for bad expirience to other player (landlords) will not help with grow of the game tho.

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18 minutes ago, Madtic said:

With the current system the landlord of an island can simply just destroy your stuff <if I am reading this right>. I liked it better when they were going to have NO claim flags.

This is PVE section, in PVE they have 12-x hours (x not defined yet) to demolish your stuff. Afterwards it will stay as long as u upkeep it.

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37 minutes ago, FruitBatCat said:

Of course you would say that, and of course you can justify your way of thinking with scare stories of things that happened on Lawless - you are one of the main people and tribes that enjoyed the previous claim system, you were constantly looking for renters and expanding your land. You would have been happy to continue with the old system no problem.

You aren't thinking about all the players who left the game as they were not happy under that system or couldn't find land. You don't understand why other players wouldn't want to play rent to you or anyone else, you don't understand why the population in lawless was far larger than claimed land due to not only being able to find land there despite the rampant griefing you think went on there, but also lack of taxes.

The whole landlord / serf concept has no place in PVE. Keep claims but limit them severely to just be a way to secure personal land to build, there's no need for anyone to owe / contribute anything to anyone else in PVE.

I would offer the lands to make it so people were not stuck in lawless. I actually had a 100 land claim rule. I would knock down claim flags that were once outposts to maintain that rule. It was a luxury that a lot of people didn't get to have. I don't want them to keep the old system it is flawed. I made a post to Jat about it around a month ago what I believe is fair for a tribe of my size. Claims need to be reworked I've posted how I would change it to make it a use it or lose it system but I guess people don't want that. To remove claims though is just to remove the way for people to defend against griefing.

~Lotus

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12 hours ago, Lotus said:

I would offer the lands to make it so people were not stuck in lawless. I actually had a 100 land claim rule. I would knock down claim flags that were once outposts to maintain that rule. It was a luxury that a lot of people didn't get to have. I don't want them to keep the old system it is flawed. I made a post to Jat about it around a month ago what I believe is fair for a tribe of my size. Claims need to be reworked I've posted how I would change it to make it a use it or lose it system but I guess people don't want that. To remove claims though is just to remove the way for people to defend against griefing.

~Lotus

100 land claims? Wow, i know others have more but there lies the problem.

I'm glad they have took flags away or limit them at least. If it gets players  back it can only be good thing.

I'd much rather live on lawless than risk building on someones land. 

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8 hours ago, DannyUK said:

100 land claims? Wow, i know others have more but there lies the problem.

I'm glad they have took flags away or limit them at least. If it gets players  back it can only be good thing.

I'd much rather live on lawless than risk building on someones land. 

That's one of the reason we left the game, there is just to many claim flags that each person has right now. I haven't played for quite awhile but I am certainly looking forward to coming back along with my friends, if they do drop their ideas of keeping the claim flags. So many left near the beginning, I think those will start to come back if they changed the way claim flags worked.

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You can fit several average groups on a island without claim flags, and they would hardly see each other

Noone needs to "own" or "claim" the entire island.

I have seen many paragon islands for instance that are empty...

Why...

Just so knowone can build

Ive seen other clans build beast gates around a island..

Why....

Its retarded.

The game is intended for thousand of people. With different real life situations that allow them to play.

The whole should not have to live by the rules of the 8 clans that wanna own everything..

The power trip needs to stop and allow the game to be available for anyone who wants to adventure to a island and make a settlement, build a ship and sail off.

The nonsense of owning 25 island or portions of 100 islands is rediculous.

 

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for me, 3 flags would be absolutely fine.  3 flags total.  DONE.  I can have 3 islands with 1 flag, or a big base area using all 3 where no one else can build inside that..  It's about making that choice..  I only need 1 main base.  My crew / peeps only need one communal base.  Be nice to have small outposts / safe houses somewhere.. but, the important part is that one main base.  Needs to be secure, free from griefing (on PvE), and ours.  Not at the mercy of an unknown 3rd party, foundation spammers or people building something around my bear....  That's it.  That's all that I need from this.  It's not complicated, doesn't need to be complicated.  3 flags total.

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We dont need claim, becos never fair for new comer and casual player

most big company will spin off to many small company to prevent claim limit, and monopoly everyything

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When you say players are you referring to active players.   Under OPs solution, after the first 10000 players, all islands would be taken no new players need apply.  not a good use of 225 servers.

I do not see how any claim system works, in PvE.   There is not enough islands to claim for all the players needed to needed to keep a server populated.   

I am absolutely sure all the pro-claim people would simple quit if they do not get a claim.  That is we get a claim system or not. since there are only 1000 or so islands, a minority of players will get claims.  So most of them will end up leaving anyway.

I have a claim in current, and still spend most of my time on lawless island simply to avoid paying taxes.

If they do have a claim system, they absolutely need a way for the claim to be challenged.   A claim is affecting other player's game-play they need a way to counter that, but any challenge system is inherently PvP.

As much as I like a claims, they should remain a PvP mechanism.   As much as I would like a claim, the only way PvE works is to make everything effectively lawless, and focus no reducing pillar spam.  Having upkeep related to amount space you occupy is the best way of going.

 

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15 minutes ago, José Gaspar said:

I do not see how any claim system works, in PvE.   There is not enough islands to claim for all the players needed to needed to keep a server populated.   

 

As much as I like a claims, they should remain a PvP mechanism.   As much as I would like a claim, the only way PvE works is to make everything effectively lawless, and focus no reducing pillar spam.  Having upkeep related to amount space you occupy is the best way of going.

 

The more I read, and the more I think about it....I have to agree. I really didn't have an issue with removing claims as long as they were able to deal with the foundation/pillar spam. The system they propose now is completely wrong for PVE and does not solve the issue of people finding their OWN piece of land to build on. It works for people who expect to be land owners, but that is not the majority of your player base. I'm confident that most people would rather build on lawless than build on land controlled by someone else.

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32 minutes ago, Greyleaf said:

The more I read, and the more I think about it....I have to agree. I really didn't have an issue with removing claims as long as they were able to deal with the foundation/pillar spam. The system they propose now is completely wrong for PVE and does not solve the issue of people finding their OWN piece of land to build on. It works for people who expect to be land owners, but that is not the majority of your player base. I'm confident that most people would rather build on lawless than build on land controlled by someone else.

There IS enough land for for everyone in pve to have their own claims.  There aren't enough islands for everyone to have their own island.  

All the brainstorming about removing claims and fixing foundation/pillar spam has shown that this gets SO complicated, requires lots of interlocking rules and pieces to work.  It turns the design into a spaghetti mess.  If you wanted to change anything later, you'd have to pick through that pile of rules very carefully, and the chances of screwing something up are very high.  If I end up building on lawless, the first thing I'll do is pillar spam, because the radius there is @ 4 tiles.    Someone's shack ends up right outside your window and now you've got no space to put your buildings.   Every solution anyone has proposed to that gets very complicated, and in the end....they've reinvented claims!  

The current proposal doesn't even work for landowners if you think about it.  With the earlier claims, some of us were unhappy that the timer didn't give us enough time to be away from the game for normal human activities.  Now it's 12 hours.  If you can't log on every 12 hours, you'll still own land, but it could be a garbage dump by then.   And now you have to pay for that garbage dump.  :classic_laugh:

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28 minutes ago, Winter Thorne said:

There IS enough land for for everyone in pve to have their own claims.  There aren't enough islands for everyone to have their own island.  

All the brainstorming about removing claims and fixing foundation/pillar spam has shown that this gets SO complicated, requires lots of interlocking rules and pieces to work.  It turns the design into a spaghetti mess.  If you wanted to change anything later, you'd have to pick through that pile of rules very carefully, and the chances of screwing something up are very high.  If I end up building on lawless, the first thing I'll do is pillar spam, because the radius there is @ 4 tiles.    Someone's shack ends up right outside your window and now you've got no space to put your buildings.   Every solution anyone has proposed to that gets very complicated, and in the end....they've reinvented claims!  

The current proposal doesn't even work for landowners if you think about it.  With the earlier claims, some of us were unhappy that the timer didn't give us enough time to be away from the game for normal human activities.  Now it's 12 hours.  If you can't log on every 12 hours, you'll still own land, but it could be a garbage dump by then.   And now you have to pay for that garbage dump.  :classic_laugh:

Well I'm open to anything as long as it doesn't have me living under someone else.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Winter Thorne said:

There IS enough land for for everyone in pve to have their own claims.  There aren't enough islands for everyone to have their own island.  

The math simply does not work.,   Industry averages are 10% of players are active at any time, the peak will be about 25% so if they every really plan to have 40K players in game at once you are talking about 150K claims.   there is not enough room for 150K land claims on map.  I am not sure there is enough for 40K claims on map that do not overlap.

Edited by José Gaspar

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6 hours ago, José Gaspar said:

The math simply does not work.,   Industry averages are 10% of players are active at any time, the peak will be about 25% so if they every really plan to have 40K players in game at once you are talking about 150K claims.   there is not enough room for 150K land claims on map.  I am not sure there is enough for 40K claims on map that do not overlap.

I think most people who have problems with paying taxes don't understand the dutirs of a landlord. All they see is the part of their production taken away by a big bad "slave master". 

First thing Landowner needs to do is paying upkeep for an Island. We don't know how much this upkeep will be on a different types of Islands yet. From what we know it will be fixed amount of different types of resources (lets say wood, thatch, fiber, stone, metal). It is completely possible that this upkeep will be like 20% of your total company production (the more people you have the lesser % of production it is). So you as an owner are "taxed" too but you are not paying to another player but to the game itself. 

Second thing is you have the responsibility for keeping the Island clean of structures from griefers. As a Landowner you will have to be active to clean structures, otherwise you potentionally miss that window where you can demolish new structures ( rn it is 12 hours but they already said they will make it longer in PvE). If you miss this you will have to wait until decay hits those structures (we don't know the decay timer but it is said to be fast) because you won't be able to destroy it manually.

Those are duties and responsibilities of Landowner company.

As a smaller company you should do the math and ask youself some questions.

1) Am I able to be active and keep the Settlement clean?

If you fail at this you will potentionally lose your tenants because they won't live somewhere with blocked resource spawns etc. And ofc you will have blocked spawns of resources.

2) How many % of my production goes to pay upkeep?

If your numbers are like 15-20% and more you should start thinking about living under someone and paying taxes instead of upkeep. 

Owner CAN'T destroy your structures after that 12 hours (for now) window.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Willard said:

Those are duties and responsibilities of Landowner company.

U are worng here, the only duty is to pay the upkeep! THIS is why u get it all worng.

If you are fine with farming you can neglect all your other points. And tbh, farming seems to be more relaxed to me then keeping an island controlled.

Edited by Kummba
dutie --> duty
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1 hour ago, Kummba said:

U are worng here, the only duty is to pay the upkeep! THIS is why u get it all worng.

If you are fine with farming you can neglect all your other points. And tbh, farming seems to be more relaxed to me then keeping an island controlled.

no u r wrong , if u want to own an island u will need tenants(players farming) to keep them happy u will have to go around removing structures that are blocking resources , blocking your tenants in , i dont think players are realising what the devs are doing here , they are effectivley making landlords mini gm's,u want tenants on your islands to reduce the amount of time u farm  you will need to make it attractive to them , ie keeping it clean of structure spam , 

the upkeep may be too much for one company we have yet to see what rate of decay wetc they devs have set up 

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Why do a small group  believe we need a "landlord"

The last time i checked, i play games to unwind from work and relieve stress by relaxing and enjoying a game.

I pay enough taxes in real life.

I dont need to work in game to pay more taxes.

The idea is to log in..

Play a few hours and log out..

I dont think a game needs another player to be a landlord.

Its a survival/pirate game.. i think running from alphas and a sod when carrying a load of cargo is enough stress in game.

There is no reason for a landlord.

I think the DEVs need to just make plots that are buildable on the map and each playet gets a plot..

Inland where resources spawn plots are not available.

Inland where people dont want homesteads, Make much smaller plots big enough for a 9x9build max for a outpost

Each player gets a homestead and a few outpost plots 

Anywhere else you can not build regardless 

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1 hour ago, Willard said:

I think most people who have problems with paying taxes don't understand the dutirs of a landlord.

I think we do understand the duties of the landlord and tbh i think landlords trying to manage tenants to pay upkeep and keep their island clean will be few and far between. 

While I was playing Atlas I spotted some beautifully built 'villages' built on claims, those people 'could' create great communities, but there are no mechanics for them to rent buildings out, provide safe stabling or a dock - with these extra utilities, the system could just work in a minority of cases.

The problem is the vast majority of players are not community minded in this way and have very different intentions for their island. We veteran gamers know this, this is the way people are.

If I, and most people, had an island I would far rather exclude other people from building on my land through pillars or gates (these are the only ways we can protect our land and ironically what the system is meant to prevent but I feel will make mandatory) and farm once a week to pay any upkeep and keep the place to myself and my tribe. Lots of people in games like these actually enjoy the grind, the farming has always been a big part of these games, players find it relaxing - the bigger your tribe the more likelihood you have a few people happy to grind all the resources necessary.

I especially wouldn't want to risk, and would need to prevent, anyone building on, or trolling me, in the short 12hrs I have to clear any structures - I really would have no choice but to exclude other people entirely than risk my island being trashed.

And where does that leave the rest of us, back on Lawless, complaining we can't find any land and leaving the game ... again.

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