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Cpt.Yarrr

Please re-think the flag system on PvE.

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I suggested this crap with arkh years ago now they are finally considering it. 

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1 hour ago, Cpt.Yarrr said:

To be honest, from looking the first teasers for this game, I was convinced a town (or making one) was actually going to happen. 

That is exactly what we wanted to do, create a town have other people like allies be a part of it and have player shops that would give others reasons to visit. Now that PVP get's the claim flags and non freeport player shops not sure about doing that. I don't want to play PVP because of the by any means necessary buildings and ship construction. Would much rather have a town that looked like a town.

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12 minutes ago, Falcatta said:

That is exactly what we wanted to do, create a town have other people like allies be a part of it and have player shops that would give others reasons to visit. Now that PVP get's the claim flags and non freeport player shops not sure about doing that. I don't want to play PVP because of the by any means necessary buildings and ship construction. Would much rather have a town that looked like a town.

Next to the fact we could make babies as players to pass on skills and such, we where also waiting for this.

Not every PvE player would like to sail and do seabattles, but owning and running shops would be one of the outcomes I totally support too. I had a crewmember who came up with the idea of making "Petshops" of some sort. To fill the lonely moments and let a rhino to be cuddled when feeling lonely for instance.

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lol I like the idea of a 'petshop'. sounds fun!

I loved the idea of player shops. I also wanted to build a 'town' for our company and our allies. But, I'm a builder, and with the new auto decay shit.... its likely not going to happen now. 

We need claim flags in PvE. Just freakin limit them to so many per company!

Otherwise, the spamming and griefing will overrun and ruin the game.

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I posted this elsewhere, but I wanted to add it here as well:

 

While we have no idea how it's going to be implemented until the ptr is available, the general assumption with regards to the pve claim changes are that the pillar spam is not going to avoidable.  Coupled with the assumption that people will be able to grief by blocking resources on non lawless, this sounds like a poor change for pve. 

  Consider that having a claim also provides a sense of identity. These changes remove that completely. You guys just updated your claim flag physics and pve players won't even be able to see it. There's no reason for pve players to design a flag at all. There's no company recognition or identity. The leader board won't even exist for pve. 

  Lets rethink the pve changes. Allow us to stake our claim without worrying about griefing. Limit flags to one or two per person, with a max cap per company. Remove sea claims entirely. 

  Also consider that pve players tend to enjoy the building and design aspect of the game more as well. With these proposed changes, we can assume that our large scale builders will be heavily punished by grindy upkeep, having to heavily farm not only to build, but to maintain those builds.   

I 100% agree that the current claim system on pve was completely unsustainable, I think everyone here does, but if our assumptions here are correct, you've swung the pendulum too far. 

 

Please do not let these changes even make it to the ptr. Let's come up with a more restricted version of the flags. You've already shown us that pvp and pve can have different claiming systems. Let's expand on that, not remove it. 

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4 hours ago, Draega Zintul said:

I posted this elsewhere, but I wanted to add it here as well:

 

While we have no idea how it's going to be implemented until the ptr is available, the general assumption with regards to the pve claim changes are that the pillar spam is not going to avoidable.  Coupled with the assumption that people will be able to grief by blocking resources on non lawless, this sounds like a poor change for pve. 

  Consider that having a claim also provides a sense of identity. These changes remove that completely. You guys just updated your claim flag physics and pve players won't even be able to see it. There's no reason for pve players to design a flag at all. There's no company recognition or identity. The leader board won't even exist for pve. 

  Lets rethink the pve changes. Allow us to stake our claim without worrying about griefing. Limit flags to one or two per person, with a max cap per company. Remove sea claims entirely. 

  Also consider that pve players tend to enjoy the building and design aspect of the game more as well. With these proposed changes, we can assume that our large scale builders will be heavily punished by grindy upkeep, having to heavily farm not only to build, but to maintain those builds.   

I 100% agree that the current claim system on pve was completely unsustainable, I think everyone here does, but if our assumptions here are correct, you've swung the pendulum too far. 

 

Please do not let these changes even make it to the ptr. Let's come up with a more restricted version of the flags. You've already shown us that pvp and pve can have different claiming systems. Let's expand on that, not remove it. 

By the looks of it, we all likely to agree on 1 point; Flags we want, restricted too. How can we get this matter onto the devteam? Or can we get some sort of comment from one of them on this subject?

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I agree with what others have been saying. The claim system is a great idea and something I like, it just was poorly implemented.  Please just limit the number of claim flags per person and don't allow ocean claims. There is no way you are going to be able to use upkeep to prevent spamming unless you make it so high that it cripples smaller groups from building. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, TheSeer said:

I agree with what others have been saying. The claim system is a great idea and something I like, it just was poorly implemented.  Please just limit the number of claim flags per person and don't allow ocean claims. There is no way you are going to be able to use upkeep to prevent spamming unless you make it so high that it cripples smaller groups from building. 

I'm convinced it will be the deathblow for all PvE players who wanted to get away from ARK and where hoping for the answer;

Territorial claiming.

I've spoken to loads of players in the last 24 hours, majority will be gone if this plan is going to be implemented. And alot of them feel they're being left in the dark while Grapeshot said they'd listen to the feedback. I don't think they ever buy a game again from the companies, they might even go for a refund due to the changing of the base-game-mechanics. Because it will be an entire new game with no claimflags.

Edited by Cpt.Yarrr

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17 hours ago, Winter Thorne said:

There are better ways to implement that than giving one big company ownership and making everyone else work for them.  If you consider that the cooperation levels are Solo -->Alliance -->Company, what they needed to do was add an extra level of cooperation to that - Town.  Multiple companies and solos on an island decide to band together for a town.  That way everyone is cooperating on the same level and it doesn't start out as boss/servant.  After that you could maybe upgrade your town and have a city level of cooperation.

For a new player that would look a lot more like going to some island to set up a base and join the town there, rather than going to some island to set up a base and work for the big company who runs everything.

What they need to do is have a "governor" position that is the one that holds the lands, they collect the taxes and in turn they must defend the island against PvP and PvE threats.
Make it so that there are occasional attacks against the coastlines by SotD and AotD on land and they will try to raid against the "governor" company meaning that the only structures that are PvP are the settlement owners structures, after they are gone and the flag is brought down it returns to lawless and everything is raidable but you MUST kill the land owner first.
That way in PvP living on a powerful companies land is beneficial because right now with the system they have stated, you are unable to defend against a PvP attack because you can't build cannons etc on your land unless you are the land owner just puckles.

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I've been loathe to get involved in this but it seems to be gathering a lot of momentum so I wanted to put forward my 2c as likely one of the people on the PvE server most involved in all iterations of the claim systems.

I am the one who has claimed or coordinated 90% of the land claims under control of the Darksea Dawgs. I did the majority of the work solo or switching back and forth between mine and my wife's computers. I've spent basically my entire time in Atlas official (until the 21 day update) placing claim flags, watching timers and thoroughly investigating the various systems Grapeshot had implemented.

 image.png.1adf5571b648353e4c8d967f9ba06aef.png

I believe that the lawless plans will be unfortunate and with the swell of community appearing to push for SOME kind of land claim system, I think that there was one system which came very close to working and with some tweaks will work. The first system which included the total flag count per company, this system scaled the DECLAIM timers from 15 minutes for inactive players and those with the most flags through to 4 hours for people with 1-15 flags.

There were 2 major problems during this time; 

1 - No limit to flags any person or company could place

I personally own at least 150 flags on the Atlas PvE server, this is absurd.

There should be a limit of 1-3 flags per grid or some limit of flags on the entire server PER PERSON and then some quantity of flags per company scaling up according to the company member count. The company flags should be placeable according to the company rank system, however the personal flags should need to be placed by the individual and not gifted to the company to spread influence. For example, I should only be able to place 3 flags in total, if our company wants to expand In order to contest a declaim timer and we have no "Company" flags left to place, we should need to have the company member attend the location we want to claim and personally put down their flag.

2 - ANYONE could contest a declaim timer (and force the timer to quickly scale back up to 4 hours) 

In order to contest a declaim timer you should need to be part of the company to who the claim belongs. Of course, ANYONE should be able to contest your flag during the 10 mins it is raising.

 

In my opinion if those 2 items were fixed we would have had a very workable system, during that short period the land ownership was in a constant state of flux with the natural swings in activity of the players/companies. The 3 days inactivity grace time was enough to indicate whether the company was actually intending on playing or not and there was plenty of land becoming contestable for newer players to look to claim.
Of course some companies who were inactive were able to maintain significant swathes of land by logging in every 2 days to refresh it and this was frustrating, but its the closest we've come to a workable system so far in my opinion.


I'm not suggesting the flag system is better, but if If the decision is made to digress from the path Grapeshot have outlined in the livestream whereby all regions will effectively be lawless (bound to be a godawful ugly mess like in the ark servers) then I hope that you guys look toward this first system with the flag counts with some limits on total ownership. 


I personally feel there is enough space for up to 3 flags per person PER GRID and 3-5 flags per company per grid (with potential to scale up for the higher population companies).

All that said, with the current plans for the servers our company will not be playing on the PvE server after the wipe, we're keen to give the PvP server a go with the push Grapeshot are making to create island communities, it looks like an excellent plan for PvP. But none of us can stomach the godawful pillar/gate spam which occurs in lawless.

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I agree with what @MisterMyztik has said. As I am not liking the whole new claim system that is coming with the new big patch. Can already see the future of endless spam of pillars and foundations to even start. I say we go back to flags BUT LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF FLAGS PEOPLE AND COMPANY can have. 3 flags per person, and a certain amount per company and have it scale up farther depending on the amount of people in said company. 

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Posted (edited)

Im not happy with this Patch Notes. PvE is going to be the same like Ark always was. Pillar Spam and Ressource blocking.

I was looking forward to Player Merchants but now whats the point in trading local ressources when all can access them or block them. Its like Esso would open every Oil Field for free to everyone. Trading can only happen when people or companies selling rare stuff other people dont have easy access to. why buying something if u can get it for free next to their base? They even wont get any Tax anymore. That i liked alot. People were able to access your Ressources but had to pay tax for it. It was a legit trade.

 

I think they just focused on PvP and dont care about PvE anymore. The new System is not only like Ark always was (and i thought they dont want to do the fails of ark again) even more its just making the whole World to a Laweless Zone. Brainless!!!! 

You guys should realy think about revamping the PvE System too. ATM this patch is for me the sign to stop playing atlas.

 

PS: Look at Life is Feudal MMO. They had the Claim Flag System and also the Server Grid long before Atlas. and its working fine there. Even with the new Patch hey revamped everything and it still working just alot better now. They also build now one Server Grid for PvE and PvP Players together. And gues.. its also working... 

Edited by athanis
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Posted (edited)

the more players that post threads and reply to them about the removal of flag claims instead of just limiting them the more chance the devs may listen ..

pillar spam here we come , the race to lvl up fast enough to build enough pillars to get ourselves and area / hopefully being able to protect resources in that as well

, is the new eautorepair structures a lvl 1 building ? is it 1 per company ? does it have a no build radius like the flags did ? we need a lot more information about it , then maybe we wouldntll be pissed about the changes if we had a lot more about the system they are planning for pve ?

Edited by UDO

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2 hours ago, UDO said:

the more players that post threads and reply to them about the removal of flag claims instead of just limiting them the more chance the devs may listen ..

pillar spam here we come , the race to lvl up fast enough to build enough pillars to get ourselves and area / hopefully being able to protect resources in that as well

, is the new eautorepair structures a lvl 1 building ? is it 1 per company ? does it have a no build radius like the flags did ? we need a lot more information about it , then maybe we wouldntll be pissed about the changes if we had a lot more about the system they are planning for pve ?

Yes,

 

you raised another point here too. The PvE part of the game (and changes) could be way more adressed then allready is. 

Alot of us players know this game has alot of potential for playing PvP. That's obvious.

But do not scrub out the PvE community yet devs, we got literaly tens of thousands hours of playing experience. Sometimes it feels like this massive wall we're trying to break thru and it just keeps "auto-repairing" faster then it decays. No pun.

And another great thing, we actually paid for the game AND we try to give you a helping hand. For free. What is wrong with this world huh?

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start with 1 claim, earn more with discovery points, max at 3-5.

if you don't have some reasonable claim limit people will use foundation spam as a way to claim land

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On 2/28/2019 at 6:17 PM, José Gaspar said:

I would like one flag per 10 levels, starting with first one at level 10.   You could get up to 10, but past 5 you have committed some serious time to the game.

This is the correct solution.

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Posted (edited)

the devs have to notice that everytime someone  suggests limiting flags everyone agrees , there hasn't been a single pve player complaining about the flag claim system just the fact is was unlimited , 

 

are they really that blind and big headed that they think their way is better ? 

 

devs test it remove all the flags now leave our buildings alone ,lets us replace them  and set a limit of how many can be placed say 3 per company at 10 players 6 at 20 up to the max players per company see what happens , i can tell u now players will move off lawless and have their own spots by the end of the day 

 

the only reason u think its a good idea is because so many play on the lawless servers they are more populated ,they are there because they cant find land because there isn't a cap on flag claims , not because they think it's a better system

Edited by UDO

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Posted (edited)

There is already an easy to implement solution to the PvE claim flag problem:

General Rules

  • Players can now build anywhere, without owning a Settlement (an island which has been claimed).
  • An island which has been claimed is now known as a Settlement.
  • Only one claim flag can be placed per island, and the owner (player/company) is the owner of that Settlement.
  • There will be a hard limit on the total number of claim flags.
  • Islands are given a rank based on their location, size and how valuable they are. These rankings will be used to determine upkeep, as well as identify the Top 10 Companies which will be a sum of all the islands that Company has claimed.
  • Structures that are built on islands that are not Settlements can be raided at any moment. 
  • Fog of War and Shroud of War have been eliminated, so the entire ATLAS will be shown to everyone.
  • World Map will now show the name of an Island (which can be changed by Settlement owners), who a Settlement is owned by, the current tax rate, and the current war status of the island.
  • Islands will have colored overlay for ownership (Owned by you, an ally, or non-ally).

Company Updates

  • NPC crew on offensive/defensive seated structures will no longer count towards the tame limit whilst seated.
  • Company limit has been reduced to 250 members
  • Group ranks have now been increased to 10
  • Alliance changes will now be logged in the Company Log
  • You can now sort the Company log to display entries from top to bottom
  • A new group setting which can grant ‘owner’ permission for company members, which can only be set by the owner and unset by the owner. Members with the ‘owner’ permission will not be able to remove the actual Company Owner from the company.
  • An alliance now only contains a maximum of 4 companies
  • A company can only be in 2 different alliances at a time.

Claim Flags

  • Sea Claim Flags have been eliminated
  • Claim flags can no longer be used to steal structure ownership on land
  • Claim flags can no longer be merged into other companies
  • There will be a hard limit on the total number of claim flags per company. For example, 20. Numbers can be adjusted.
  • A claim flag cannot be placed without a tax bank.
  • Claiming an island will take a fixed amount of time plus an additional amount per claim flag owned. For example, 1 hour to claim and +1 hour per owned claim flag. Numbers can be adjusted.
  • Declaiming will always take a fixed amount of time. For example, 2 hours. Numbers can be adjusted.

Claim Flag Upkeep

  • Claim Flags now have an upkeep cost which is paid from the tax bank
  • The upkeep cost will be an assortment of resources.
  • The upkeep cost will scale on the size of the island, the total number of claim flags a company has, and how many different companies/players are building on the island.
  • Players can only place items into a tax bank that go towards upkeep
  • Claim Flag will have a grace period after successful claim to allow resources to gather in a tax bank before upkeep is charged
  • The claim flag will visualize if the upkeep will not be met, so players are able to contribute directly to the Tax Bank. The Tax Bank will now stack resources like a ship resource box.

Settlements

  • Settlement owners can freely damage other characters and structures on their island. 
  • Settlement owners can set taxes on their island which will automatically be deposited into the Tax Bank
  • Structures that are built on a Settlement which do not belong to the Settlement Owner will have a decay timer.
  • Player Run shops which are placed on islands can also be taxed by Settlement owners
Edited by Draalei

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1 hour ago, Draalei said:

There is already an easy to implement solution to the PvE claim flag problem:

General Rules

  • Players can now build anywhere, without owning a Settlement (an island which has been claimed).
  • An island which has been claimed is now known as a Settlement.
  • Only one claim flag can be placed per island, and the owner (player/company) is the owner of that Settlement.
  • There will be a hard limit on the total number of claim flags.
  • Islands are given a rank based on their location, size and how valuable they are. These rankings will be used to determine upkeep, as well as identify the Top 10 Companies which will be a sum of all the islands that Company has claimed.
  • Structures that are built on islands that are not Settlements can be raided at any moment. 
  • Fog of War and Shroud of War have been eliminated, so the entire ATLAS will be shown to everyone.
  • World Map will now show the name of an Island (which can be changed by Settlement owners), who a Settlement is owned by, the current tax rate, and the current war status of the island.
  • Islands will have colored overlay for ownership (Owned by you, an ally, or non-ally).

Company Updates

  • NPC crew on offensive/defensive seated structures will no longer count towards the tame limit whilst seated.
  • Company limit has been reduced to 250 members
  • Group ranks have now been increased to 10
  • Alliance changes will now be logged in the Company Log
  • You can now sort the Company log to display entries from top to bottom
  • A new group setting which can grant ‘owner’ permission for company members, which can only be set by the owner and unset by the owner. Members with the ‘owner’ permission will not be able to remove the actual Company Owner from the company.
  • An alliance now only contains a maximum of 4 companies
  • A company can only be in 2 different alliances at a time.

Claim Flags

  • Sea Claim Flags have been eliminated
  • Claim flags can no longer be used to steal structure ownership on land
  • Claim flags can no longer be merged into other companies
  • There will be a hard limit on the total number of claim flags per company. For example, 20. Numbers can be adjusted.
  • A claim flag cannot be placed without a tax bank.
  • Claiming an island will take a fixed amount of time plus an additional amount per claim flag owned. For example, 1 hour to claim and +1 hour per owned claim flag. Numbers can be adjusted.
  • Declaiming will always take a fixed amount of time. For example, 2 hours. Numbers can be adjusted.

Claim Flag Upkeep

  • Claim Flags now have an upkeep cost which is paid from the tax bank
  • The upkeep cost will be an assortment of resources.
  • The upkeep cost will scale on the size of the island, the total number of claim flags a company has, and how many different companies/players are building on the island.
  • Players can only place items into a tax bank that go towards upkeep
  • Claim Flag will have a grace period after successful claim to allow resources to gather in a tax bank before upkeep is charged
  • The claim flag will visualize if the upkeep will not be met, so players are able to contribute directly to the Tax Bank. The Tax Bank will now stack resources like a ship resource box.

Settlements

  • Settlement owners can freely damage other characters and structures on their island. 
  • Settlement owners can set taxes on their island which will automatically be deposited into the Tax Bank
  • Structures that are built on a Settlement which do not belong to the Settlement Owner will have a decay timer.
  • Player Run shops which are placed on islands can also be taxed by Settlement owners

Wich will be on PvP only.

Hence this thread.

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59 minutes ago, Cpt.Yarrr said:

Wich will be on PvP only.

Hence this thread.

That was the point.  They should implement the same thing for PvE.  That is why the solution is easy to implement.  They don't have to do any additional work.

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1 hour ago, Draalei said:

That was the point.  They should implement the same thing for PvE.  That is why the solution is easy to implement.  They don't have to do any additional work.

i cannot for the life of me understand why this isnt part of pve as well , 

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1 hour ago, Draalei said:

That was the point.  They should implement the same thing for PvE.  That is why the solution is easy to implement.  They don't have to do any additional work.

 

1 minute ago, UDO said:

i cannot for the life of me understand why this isnt part of pve as well , 

Ye, was just typing the same. I actually quoted due to the obvious, I don't get it either. 

More like PvE is OR being tested OR being left in the dark.

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If they keep flags in PVE they need a way to contest them which is going to need to involve PVP, the 20 day timer is ridiculous especially with fast travel to reset the timer.

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13 minutes ago, Azurfale said:

If they keep flags in PVE they need a way to contest them which is going to need to involve PVP, the 20 day timer is ridiculous especially with fast travel to reset the timer.

I never seen the flags as part of PVE, my opinion is they should be for PVP only to run around contesting land and people putting ships near your flags to contest, I don't consider it PVE.

I can live with 1 or 2 flag that people are suggesting instead of just leaving it like lawless but I won't be happy if they went back to the flag spamming system with red circles everywhere, alot of others were fed up of this also.

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36 minutes ago, DannyUK said:

I never seen the flags as part of PVE, my opinion is they should be for PVP only to run around contesting land and people putting ships near your flags to contest, I don't consider it PVE.

I can live with 1 or 2 flag that people are suggesting instead of just leaving it like lawless but I won't be happy if they went back to the flag spamming system with red circles everywhere, alot of others were fed up of this also.

14x14 Map with 4 island per grid is 784 islands, if all islands were claimable and a player was allowed to claim 2 islands 342 players would control the entire map. Since most grids are unclaimable it would be even less players controlling all available land.

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