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DeadbyFrag

Redesign a Robust Skill Tree

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So when I first read about this game it was sold as an Eve Online rival. A new MMO that was going to take it to the next level. After two shorts months of play I am out of content as I am able to build everything on my own, skilled in everything and have done all the end game content. 

 

So what gives? What is there to strive for when one player can unlock all the skills needed to do everything?

 

What I would have like to have seen is a complex skill tree with depth to keep me engaged & player stores that make specialized players needed.

 

Imagine instead of everyone being a master harvester of lumber, everyone had the ability to harvest rough cut lumber. Rough cut could be converted to basic long boards at a mill which could be sold or used as an ingredient in crafting basic small planks.

You can spec into lumber mill skills and learn more complex cuts which can be used in more advanced structures or you could learn about wood species which would allow you to identify tree types and harvest specialty lumbers. Even more, you could spec into a specific lumber type and then progress to more efficient harvesting of that type. 

There could be libraries at different ports where books could spawn for purchase to open the skill trees.

Give each wood type a special value. Hardwoods reduce dmg taken, light woods reduction in weight, wet wood reduces fire dmg ect. 

This is an example of the harvest tree, do the same with other trees. Make them deep and robust.

If you can master a skill tree and have no need for specialists, then you don't need a player base to make things happen. I would love to see a skill tree as deep and robust as Eve that forces player markets to buy unique resources that cannot be readily built by yourself. Give me a tree that takes a year to master just one area of specializing and I have something to strive for. Right now it takes a month a best. Put a trade hub island in every grid for people to stock. 

There is so much more that can be learned from Eve about generating content on the PvE side that feeds the needs of the PvPers. 

Mix the servers and set grid restrictions for PvP, some with only PvP with a required fee to allow war between groups and some that prohibit war all together. Make the full PvP areas have the high quality materials, mid tiers in areas war can be declared and basics in PvE areas...

I'll end my rant with the suggestion of xp being changed to wisdom with age. Gaining xp as you grow older so that xp gain is steady throughout the game..

This game has a lot of potential, now give us a reason to keep playing it for years.

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34 minutes ago, prodesu said:

There's a content patch coming out in the end of February. 🙂

Yes but its not going to be adding all that much more depth. I have also suggested in a thread on how to give the game more variety and depth when it comes to PVP and combat. Players need to be given more options to design different ships with a variety of weapon loadouts.

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I would love to see npc bases to raid and npc ships of varying kinds and classes to take out with goodies on board to salvage after sinking them. Could even remove SOTD and have these people, merchants, navy sailors etc etc be recruited and turned into pirates... You know kind of like how pirates worked. So many pirates were pressed into service or were on the right side of the law at some point before becoming pirates for varying reasons. Not sure I agree on really pushing people to specialize into very specialized trees and leaving most of it locked out. I think its good you can be a JoT even in a big company. That said there are a lot of skill trees that just seem silly or whose benefits don't really seem all that worthwhile for what is given. I wouldn't mind seeing them expanding it and adding more skills down the road.

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Oh no you are going to upset people who want their character to be able to do everything in game at the same time.. 

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1 hour ago, Caldrin said:

Oh no you are going to upset people who want their character to be able to do everything in game at the same time.. 

 

People should be able to do everything. Locking features behind skills achieves nothing. It should be about mastering the game not arbitrary restrictions. That's actually one of the few things I didn't like about Eve-online. The skill system just meant people had to create alt-accounts (or play for so long that they still could do everything, it just meant an enormous advantage compared to new players that wasn't based on player skill). The same is (will be) true in atlas, you aren't stopping anyone from doing everything, you are just adding additional steps which add nothing to the actual gaming experience.

I don't mind some specialisation but this shouldn't be the focus in a MMO. It should be about what you CHOOSE to do at any point in time, not what the game allows you to do. I shouldn't have to pick between being able to sail a ship and crafting stone walls for example. The "skill" should be whether or not you are actually a good builder/captain ingame but locking things behind skills only means people get to see less of the game or just have to circumvent it completely (there is a reason why the ability to reskill for 250g was just added, it's pretty much an admission that the skill system is extremely flawed).

Unlocking new skills will always be just a short time gratification. It's the wrong thing to focus on, add more depth and possibilities to your gameplay, that's how you ensure that not everyone can be everything because it actually requires player mastery/knowledge.

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The problem with any skill tree that is robust, is that it inhibits your game play.  Anytime you make it such that I cannot do things in the game, such as tame an animal, or ride it, or build a ship, or build structures, etc...you limit my ability to get things done.

What we need is an economy that is NOT player controlled.  In other words, wood is worth a set amount of gold, and stone is worth a set amount, etc..  This allows me to gather materials for gold, which I can then convert to what I need.  This is how the real world works.  I don't need to know how to do everything.  I buy what I need.

The skill tree should not require us to learn to tame and ride.  Just one, or both should be an option.  Same with everything.  I do not have to learn to build ships, and cannons if I want to captain the ship.  Anyone can take the wheel.  The way in which people are limited from riding is not smart.  In short, pretty much everyone specs into at least tier 2 riding.  Whether you are a fighter or a gatherer, you need to be able to ride a bear.

Instead of locking people out of things, you should simply be able to increase your ability to do more in a specified area.  In other words, everyone can ride, but not everyone can do call of the wild, nature's touch, advanced combat commands, etc...   Everyone should be able to craft a vanilla saddle, but not everyone can craft upgraded saddles.  Everyone can fire a pistol, but not everyone has steady aim, or faster reloads, etc...

Also, the way in which stats are done, make it to the benefit of the attacker.  They respec for combat, while the defenders were all spec'd for gathering, etc...  This makes defending, which is already near impossible, even harder.  When I say near impossible, I mean that the attacker is usually bringing numbers, and the defender is unlikely to have even half as many.

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I don't understand the "we should be able to do everything mentality". What is there to strive for when you can go from level 0 to level 25 on 3 maps and unlock half the game? Who's buying resources if you can pump out a brig in 2 - 4 hours solo  with a tame? Once you figure out how to play this game effectively, it's easy mode and there is nothing to grind to so it gets repetitive. 

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So you mean like Wurm Online?    Do you know how long and painful it is to make a ship in that game?   They actually removed the different woods on a texture performance pass and it never came back.

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Caravel

Everything matters, including using a master carpenter so you do not fail at the thousands of pegs you need.

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Create market places and everything can be obtained. I personally don't think a shipwright should be a master blacksmith, farmer, tamer, ect. I don't see the dolphin trainer at Sea World dropping ships in his spare time. 

 

The basic concept is this, give me something to make my skills valuable. Give me something to keep grinding towards and I will play for years. Let me specialize everything in a month and I wont have to interact with the player base, I'll run out of things to do and I'll be done with the game by 3 months. 

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1 hour ago, DeadbyFrag said:

I don't understand the "we should be able to do everything mentality". What is there to strive for when you can go from level 0 to level 25 on 3 maps and unlock half the game? Who's buying resources if you can pump out a brig in 2 - 4 hours solo  with a tame? Once you figure out how to play this game effectively, it's easy mode and there is nothing to grind to so it gets repetitive. 

I don't think you understand what I am saying.  If I run solo, I CANNOT play this game.  If I run with a small crew, I CANNOT play unless the others are playing.  Many companies, even one I play with on official, have very few members who are actively playing every day.  So let's say I need a ship to be built.  If I am not spec'd into it, I cannot have a ship unless somebody in my company, who is, also happens to be online.  This is game breaking limitations.

Instead, I should be able to do what I can do, in game, and convert that to gold to buy what I need.  I am not saying that I should be able to do everything, but I should be able to do what I can do, and be able to function in game.  So I should be able to mine for metal, wood, stone, etc...and sell it for gold.  That gold is then used to buy the ship parts I need in order to create the ship.  This of course, would be a more expensive way to create that ship, than if I, or a Company Mate, is spec'd into creating those parts.  but not excessively more expensive.  Not like twice as costly...maybe something like 15 to 20% more costly.

If I am not spec'd into taming, I should be able to purchase tames.  Again, it would be cheaper to have somebody in the company tame a creature, than buying a tame.

I find this game too limiting on official.  Makes the game more a chore, than a fun way to pass the time.  So I will stick to unofficial servers, where I am not so limited.

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23 minutes ago, krazmuze said:

So you mean like Wurm Online?    Do you know how long and painful it is to make a ship in that game?   They actually removed the different woods on a texture performance pass and it never came back.

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Caravel

Everything matters, including using a master carpenter so you do not fail at the thousands of pegs you need.

 

8 minutes ago, Captain Jack Shadow said:

I don't think you understand what I am saying.  If I run solo, I CANNOT play this game.  If I run with a small crew, I CANNOT play unless the others are playing.  Many companies, even one I play with on official, have very few members who are actively playing every day.  So let's say I need a ship to be built.  If I am not spec'd into it, I cannot have a ship unless somebody in my company, who is, also happens to be online.  This is game breaking limitations.

Instead, I should be able to do what I can do, in game, and convert that to gold to buy what I need.  I am not saying that I should be able to do everything, but I should be able to do what I can do, and be able to function in game.  So I should be able to mine for metal, wood, stone, etc...and sell it for gold.  That gold is then used to buy the ship parts I need in order to create the ship.  This of course, would be a more expensive way to create that ship, than if I, or a Company Mate, is spec'd into creating those parts.  but not excessively more expensive.  Not like twice as costly...maybe something like 15 to 20% more costly.

If I am not spec'd into taming, I should be able to purchase tames.  Again, it would be cheaper to have somebody in the company tame a creature, than buying a tame.

I find this game too limiting on official.  Makes the game more a chore, than a fun way to pass the time.  So I will stick to unofficial servers, where I am not so limited.

This is where player markets come into play. If you can't build it, you sell off what ever you harvested/built with your specialty and use the funds to buy what you need. It creates community engagement which generates content.

Playing solo has no place in an MMO. Small companies like what you describe would still thrive under this system.

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Just now, DeadbyFrag said:

 

This is where player markets come into play. If you can't build it, you sell off what ever you harvested/built with your specialty and use the funds to buy what you need. It creates community engagement which generates content.

Playing solo has no place in an MMO. Small companies like what you describe would still thrive under this system.

That's basically what I was saying.  Just as long as things are sold at a predictable, set market value.  Unfortunately, if you let players set the value, somebody will act like an idiot, and ruin the system.  On paper, giving control to the players seems like a good idea, but in practice, it always turns south very quickly because somebody always acts like an idiot.  "Oh, you need these gems that only me and my company have locked down?"  OK, you will pay until the game is ruined for you.   Sorry, not what I want in a game.  Oh sure, some idiot will come in here and say that it's PvP and that you just need to go take the gems away from them.  Yeah, right...except that they might be the Alpha Mega, in which case you just have to enjoy the suck.  Sorry, but no.  I play games for MY enjoyment, and stop playing when it is no longer enjoyable.

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Though I don't think this game was designed for solo/small groups, I don't agree that solo play has no place in an MMO.  Things should be more difficult solo but it should still be viable.  The skill system you've outlined sounds more tedious than anything else, there are ark mods that added in processing steps for wood, and it just makes the whole building process slower and more boring.

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53 minutes ago, arzosah said:

Though I don't think this game was designed for solo/small groups, I don't agree that solo play has no place in an MMO.  Things should be more difficult solo but it should still be viable.  The skill system you've outlined sounds more tedious than anything else, there are ark mods that added in processing steps for wood, and it just makes the whole building process slower and more boring.

I look back to Eve's model. Complex but simple enough. What it allowed was for people to make and sell intermediate parts. If you make a ship from scrap it is tedious, but if you sold an intermediate part for currency, you could by a finished ship. Or if your a ship builder you could buy the intermediate parts, assemble the ship and sell for a profit. The skill tree requires an active market, not doing it all yourself. 

 

Think of it like a car assembly plant. You don't mine the materials to make the parts for the cars. You have a mining company that sells to a metal refinery that sells to a manufacturer that makes a part that sells it to the car manufacturer that assembles it. 

Make more jobs and everyone can find their nitch. Then buy and sell off the market. 

Can't solo a galley? Maybe sell parts needed that are in low stock and buy one. Hate mining and building and just want to pvp? Spec in weapons or captaining and hold territory with good resources and sell them to builders. Love building but hate harvesting, buy intermediates from the market and sell your creations. 

Edited by DeadbyFrag

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21 minutes ago, DeadbyFrag said:

I look back to Eve's model. Complex but simple enough. What it allowed was for people to make and sell intermediate parts. If you make a ship from scrap it is tedious, but if you sold an intermediate part for currency, you could by a finished ship. Or if your a ship builder you could buy the intermediate parts, assemble the ship and sell for a profit. The skill tree requires an active market, not doing it all yourself. 

 

Think of it like a car assembly plant. You don't mine the materials to make the parts for the cars. You have a mining company that sells to a metal refinery that sells to a manufacturer that makes a part that sells it to the car manufacturer that assembles it. 

Make more jobs and everyone can find their nitch. Then buy and sell off the market. 

Can't solo a galley? Maybe sell parts needed that are in low stock and buy one. Hate mining and building and just want to pvp? Spec in weapons or captaining and hold territory with good resources and sell them to builders. Love building but hate harvesting, buy intermediates from the market and sell your creations. 

I understand how it would work....I just think it's a horribly tedious process.

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If they honestly want a player driven economy akin EVE and the like then they wouldn't be handing out skill points like candy. Maybe I'm wrong and this will be adjusted in time but honestly I don't see it. So imo don't focus effort on revamping the trees to be role focused.

Adjust whats currently there to provide more purpose. Take Guns and Armor as an example. You can't even learn to equip anything above common unless you also learn how to craft it... Materials aside the BP's are a non issue (easy to obtain) so what's the point?

Edited by Nari

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20 minutes ago, Nari said:

If they honestly want a player driven economy akin EVE and the like then they wouldn't be handing out skill points like candy. Maybe I'm wrong and this will be adjusted in time but honestly I don't see it. So imo don't focus effort on revamping the trees to be role focused.

Adjust whats currently there to provide more purpose. Take Guns and Armor as an example. You can't even learn to equip anything above common unless you also learn how to craft it... Materials aside the BP's are a non issue (easy to obtain) so what's the point?

Yup, needing to spec to use better quality gear is kinda pointless and limits trade. Instead of needing to spec the points to use it, it should be that the points speced in are to use it better. Less stamina drain, better damage etc, less durability loss, etc. 

I can pick up a walmart quality axe and chop down a tree. I can get a hand forged axe that holds an edge longer, and is perfectly balanced, and with no additional training, chop that tree down faster....but an experienced lumberjack is still going to drop that tree a lot quicker, with less effort,  than I could with the same tool.

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3 hours ago, DeadbyFrag said:

I look back to Eve's model. Complex but simple enough. What it allowed was for people to make and sell intermediate parts. If you make a ship from scrap it is tedious, but if you sold an intermediate part for currency, you could by a finished ship. Or if your a ship builder you could buy the intermediate parts, assemble the ship and sell for a profit. The skill tree requires an active market, not doing it all yourself. 

 

Think of it like a car assembly plant. You don't mine the materials to make the parts for the cars. You have a mining company that sells to a metal refinery that sells to a manufacturer that makes a part that sells it to the car manufacturer that assembles it. 

Make more jobs and everyone can find their nitch. Then buy and sell off the market. 

Can't solo a galley? Maybe sell parts needed that are in low stock and buy one. Hate mining and building and just want to pvp? Spec in weapons or captaining and hold territory with good resources and sell them to builders. Love building but hate harvesting, buy intermediates from the market and sell your creations. 

This is what Wurm tried to do. Guess what, I don't play that game anymore. In my opinion, it was a failure at creating a market by just limiting the number of skills you can learn. Instead it just drove its players away. I and most other gamers don't have the patience to play a game for six months to a year just to become proficient in most of the skills.

If Atlas was the only game available and you had to play it (kind of like in real life, there really is no other choice), then you can create a market economy by forcing players to deal with it. This game isn't real life and it isn't the only game you can play, so you can't force players into a specific mode of play. You can make advantages to trading that will get players to do it, just don't think the way to create an economy is to take away all the other choices.

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Much as I loved Star Wars Galaxies, and for good reason, I always very much disliked the limitations placed on skills learned. 

I do like cooperative play, but I prefer the sandbox feel of absolute freedom in how to shape your character.  I don't think that ultimately limits cooperation, it's still very much worthwhile to help each other out, but it does limit the amount of hegemony the players with lots of time can gain over the more casual players.

In a PvE environment, I strongly value allowing preference to drive cooperation.  I want to trade and work together because I want to, because it's fun, not because it satisfies someone else's gameplay to limit mine.

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8 minutes ago, wildbill said:

This is what Wurm tried to do. Guess what, I don't play that game anymore. In my opinion, it was a failure at creating a market by just limiting the number of skills you can learn. Instead it just drove its players away. I and most other gamers don't have the patience to play a game for six months to a year just to become proficient in most of the skills.

If Atlas was the only game available and you had to play it (kind of like in real life, there really is no other choice), then you can create a market economy by forcing players to deal with it. This game isn't real life and it isn't the only game you can play, so you can't force players into a specific mode of play. You can make advantages to trading that will get players to do it, just don't think the way to create an economy is to take away all the other choices.

I can appreciate your opinion. It sounds like Wurm did something wrong but there is also an established successful model with Eve Online. I use this as the point of reference as Atlas used it in their PR campaign leading up to the release.

So if we leave the skill tree alone and hand it out to everyone, what incentivizes the player base to interact with each other? What incentive do I have to be part of a company if I can do everything myself? What makes me a valid, useful member or gives me purpose in my company if they can do everything without me? 

What incentive do I have if there is nothing better to grind for after a month of playing?

My opinion is that by handing out the entire skill tree to everyone it kills player community engagement. Think of all the islands that people lock down and then never let anyone in. Why would they when the can turn to a hermit and do everything themselves without ever leaving shore? They don't need anything beyond their walls.

I also think when you can't find a purpose in an MMO it gets boring fast. 

There are plenty of MMOs with fully unlockable skill trees (Ark, Rust, 7 Days to Die, ect) and time and time again I see friends come and go in 1 - 3 months in these types of games as there is nothing to strive for beyond that point. So what keeps people engaged for years instead of months? How many friends have you already lost due to boredom? 

I agree that to make any of this work you have to rework skill points and you have to limit barriers to trade but give me something to keep going for.

 

 

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6 hours ago, DeadbyFrag said:

I don't understand the "we should be able to do everything mentality". What is there to strive for when you can go from level 0 to level 25 on 3 maps and unlock half the game? Who's buying resources if you can pump out a brig in 2 - 4 hours solo  with a tame? Once you figure out how to play this game effectively, it's easy mode and there is nothing to grind to so it gets repetitive. 

Well there are lot of lazy players out there like everything to be fast and easy with little effort required. That's why PVE exists and that is why we were recently given extra points for nothing. Just look at this forum, there are endless threads about the game being too hard.

It is true people are leaving the game but merely because its 'hard' which it really isn't but rather there is a severe lack of content and variety. The game comes across as very generic, bland and basic.

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7 hours ago, DeadbyFrag said:

I don't understand the "we should be able to do everything mentality". What is there to strive for when you can go from level 0 to level 25 on 3 maps and unlock half the game?

I play PvP for the human competition.  I play it to help my team kick the enemy's team rear end.  Skills are neat and all, but they get in the way of the content I want to pursue and thats the human created content.  Missions, SoTD,  FoY, etc are all small aspects of the game to me.  Many people in my company think this way. 

The beauty of these games are the choices.  We choose the content we want to enjoy.  We are given a wide variety to choose form.  I hope they do not make the skill tree a time consuming grindy mess.

At this time the game is alpha.  How do they test skills if they make it takes months to achieve?  We're in alpha.  Make it cheap and easy to get so we use it.  Gives the devs more data points to work from to improve the game. 

I cannot stress the last part enough.  This is an alpha.  Rarely do alphas have a ton of content when they start.  Most games are still adding content through the beta process and these days even after a game goes gold new content is still being added.  A lot of content can be added the next two years and after release. 

Edited by DocHolliday

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42 minutes ago, Kveldulf said:

Much as I loved Star Wars Galaxies, and for good reason, I always very much disliked the limitations placed on skills learned. 

I do like cooperative play, but I prefer the sandbox feel of absolute freedom in how to shape your character.  I don't think that ultimately limits cooperation, it's still very much worthwhile to help each other out, but it does limit the amount of hegemony the players with lots of time can gain over the more casual players.

In a PvE environment, I strongly value allowing preference to drive cooperation.  I want to trade and work together because I want to, because it's fun, not because it satisfies someone else's gameplay to limit mine.

I am glad you brought up SWG!  I still believe it had the best character skill system.  (the original, not the NGE, or whatever they called it)  You could learn some basics in a tree, but not become a specialist.  In the early days, it really was a pretty good player driven economy. You had master crafters that were sought out for their wares.   People actually had a reputation and you would be proud to wear their gear or wield their weapons.  You could still spend some points to make a blaster, but it would be no where near the quality of the master crafter.  I don't remember people being total jerks and gouging the hell out of newbies, there really was a competitive market.  

As far as ATLAS goes, who knows?  It is still very early and many things will change.  I would like to see a new skill category - specializations.  This is where you put riding skills, armor use, weapon proficiency, things like that.  You should be able to ride tier one from the beginning, but make horses tier one.  I hit level 52, have not maxxed things out.  I need to use an alt to make the highest tier ship materials - I specialized in making weapons, armor, and animal taming.  I have not put any points into faster reload, armor articulation etc.  I still stress out about not having a specific skill I want at a given time.  The respec purchase patching in soon will alleviate some of that.  

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8 hours ago, DeadbyFrag said:

What is there to strive for when you can go from level 0 to level 25 on 3 maps and unlock half the game? 

To be fair death is supposed to have a lot more impact and Legacy is hinted to be intended as some sort of soft reset. Like inheriting stats but not level for example functionality is not actually clear at this point but my point is the speed at which you level is not an issue (or wont be) if/when these other mechanics come to fruition. If anything you'll be glad you can hit 25 with 3 maps.

Edited by Nari
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