Large cannon nerf and gunport buffs = stronger schooners

[Evir 38]

This was yet another back door buff to schooners in PVP.

The combination of the gun port buff and the nerf to large cannons, just made schooners even stronger than they already were. They now outclass brigs in nearly every way. Before, brigs could at least hold their own with large cannons, but now medium cannons do more DPS and there is only 1 per side gun port difference on schooners,  The crew difference is very small on schooners compared to brigs, you can run almost as many cannons based on crew complement and be faster than brigs.  Brigs could at least make up for the difference before because the large cannons did more damage and made up for the lack of crew by having fewer, harder hitting cannons. But that advantage is gone now.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Evir

[Talono 434]

Very true, completely fail patch. Large cannons are completely pointless now for anything but shoot bases a bit away from the shoreline. Even there they suck due to the non possible angle aiming.

[Mike L 71]

Large cannon still has twice the range over ship cannons. 

That alone is enough of an advantage for them to be used over ship cannons. 

 

[Evir 38]

3 hours ago, Mike L said:

Large cannon still has twice the range over ship cannons. 

That alone is enough of an advantage for them to be used over ship cannons. 

 

Not really, the odds of you hitting a large cannon shot on anything, even a galleon at max range is very low, almost everyone waits until they are within medium cannon range to fire the large cannons, because the reload is so long they want to ensure a hit.
In theory, what you are saying is true, but in practice, not so much. Even NPCs miss at that range, consistently miss.

[Bullet Force 151]

1 hour ago, Evir said:

Not really, the odds of you hitting a large cannon shot on anything, even a galleon at max range is very low, almost everyone waits until they are within medium cannon range to fire the large cannons, because the reload is so long they want to ensure a hit.
In theory, what you are saying is true, but in practice, not so much. Even NPCs miss at that range, consistently miss.

The problem is the extremely low velocity of the cannons in the game. They are unrealistically slow which makes it very difficult at range to land shots because of how slow the cannon ball moves.

[LaiTash 156]

3 hours ago, Evir said:

Not really, the odds of you hitting a large cannon shot on anything, even a galleon at max range is very low, almost everyone waits until they are within medium cannon range to fire the large cannons, because the reload is so long they want to ensure a hit.

So why everyone and his mother is using large cannons?

[Evir 38]

34 minutes ago, LaiTash said:

So why everyone and his mother is using large cannons?

Because it was patched.... yesterday?

[LaiTash 156]

22 minutes ago, Evir said:

Because it was patched.... yesterday?

What was patched? Fixed something that wasn't even a main reason for why people were using large cannons in the first place?

[Evir 38]

3 minutes ago, LaiTash said:

What was patched? Fixed something that wasn't even a main reason for why people were using large cannons in the first place?

The primary reason people were using large cannons was because they could stack them and plank a ship with one volley. It was not the range, the range was irrelevant, it was to shoot ships and break the planks in one shot. That is it, the only reason. It did way more damage than medium cannons, but now the damage is 30% lower, so the damage difference is smaller. Now the DPS is lower for large cannons because they take much longer to reload. Medium cannons are the new meta, people just haven't gone through and redesigned their ships because many of them might have blueprint cannons and will probably fight with the ship until it sinks then change.

[LaiTash 156]

8 hours ago, Evir said:

It was not the range, the range was irrelevant

Yeah whatever

[Sneakydude 143]

All large went poof off my ships. Only reason to have it is to break through a gate at long ranges. Then again you still have to line the ship up perfectly. The weight alone sucks.

[Mike L 71]

On 2/9/2019 at 10:57 PM, Evir said:

Not really, the odds of you hitting a large cannon shot on anything, even a galleon at max range is very low, almost everyone waits until they are within medium cannon range to fire the large cannons, because the reload is so long they want to ensure a hit.
In theory, what you are saying is true, but in practice, not so much. Even NPCs miss at that range, consistently miss.

They do miss a lot yes, not hard to have extra large balls though and if they manage to hit a few shots even after nerf, your going to be missing planks trying to get in med cannon range. 

The problem is a schooner that has 10 med cannons with or without gunports is heavier than one that say only has 3 large cannons on the back. 

The one with large cannons can get you in cannon range and start shooting, your only option would be to run, because they are lighter so you will not catch them if you pursue. 

Its checkmate for the heavier schooner that doesnt have large cannons. 

If the large cannon schooner runs out of balls they can just sail away faster than the regular schooner. 

The range of the large cannons is what makes this gorilla warfare tactic possible. 

 

I personally like using the ship cannons and gunports, but they have no point because of that battle strat. 

Until they fix gunports weight problem ship cannons are almost useless. :(. 

[Evir 38]

29 minutes ago, Mike L said:

They do miss a lot yes, not hard to have extra large balls though and if they manage to hit a few shots even after nerf, your going to be missing planks trying to get in med cannon range. 

The problem is a schooner that has 10 med cannons with or without gunports is heavier than one that say only has 3 large cannons on the back. 

The one with large cannons can get you in cannon range and start shooting, your only option would be to run, because they are lighter so you will not catch them if you pursue. 

Its checkmate for the heavier schooner that doesnt have large cannons. 

If the large cannon schooner runs out of balls they can just sail away faster than the regular schooner. 

The range of the large cannons is what makes this gorilla warfare tactic possible. 

 

I personally like using the ship cannons and gunports, but they have no point because of that battle strat. 

Until they fix gunports weight problem ship cannons are almost useless. :(. 

You are still comparing schooner to schooner. Now compare brig to schooner. Like I was talking about in the OP.

You are faster in every way than the brig, more maneuverable, you have slightly less health, per plank and roof/ceiling/wall armor, and you can have nearly the same amount of crew.  All you have to do is maneuver around the large cannon brig, maybe eat 1 shot get in close then start deleting planks with a crew buffed repeated cannon volley.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Evir

[Mike L 71]

36 minutes ago, Evir said:

You are still comparing schooner to schooner. Now compare brig to schooner. Like I was talking about in the OP.

You are faster in every way than the brig, more maneuverable, you have slightly less health, per plank and roof/ceiling/wall armor, and you can have nearly the same amount of crew.  All you have to do is maneuver around the large cannon brig, maybe eat 1 shot get in close then start deleting planks with a crew buffed repeated cannon volley.

Hate to do this but I was comparing schooner to schooner so that there's less variables to easier understand the battle strat. 

You didn't explain how you move faster with a brig that has more cannons and therefore more weight, a brigantine would never catch this theoretical schooner that only has 3 large cannons on the back, unless that brig has less cannons, in which case those large cannons will be doing some damage to ya. 

All the schooner has to do is run. 

Ohh I reread your post were you talking about a large cannon brig vs ship cannon schooner? 

In that case I wouldn't build a large cannon brig, because schooners are faster. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Mike L

[Evir 38]

40 minutes ago, Mike L said:

Hate to do this but I was comparing schooner to schooner so that there's less variables to easier understand the battle strat. 

You didn't explain how you move faster with a brig that has more cannons and therefore more weight, a brigantine would never catch this theoretical schooner that only has 3 large cannons on the back, unless that brig has less cannons a weight in which case those large cannons will be doing some damage to ya. 

All the schooner has to do is run. 

This post is confusing me, are you agreeing with me?

Before brigs could effectively one shot schooners if they got into range, it is very difficult for a schooner with only 3 cannons on the back to actually sink ships unless that ship is really really dumb and allows it to happen. They literally, just have to turn and the schooner has to spend several minutes readjusting, just to get into range, I have sank a few of these schooners before because they are trying to get into position and mess up their attack angle, and get into range of cannons. Especially if the wind is against them on their attack angle and I can use wind to get into position.

Now large canons do way less damage, and the schooners have a massive buff because of that.It is amazing how limited your thinking is. Schooners can now eat large cannon shots, and then use their much higher DPS, to delete planks on brigs, especially when they can out maneuver brigs. by hitting them in their dead zones where no cannons are pointing. Coming up on rear attack angles, then unleashing on their aft left or right quarter as the brig. 
 
Just so we are clear, if the enemy runs away, you win. So I have no idea what your post is about honestly.

3 large cannons would take dozens of volleys to sink a brig that has any type of competent crew with repair mats and planks, especially if it has armor. There is a high chance that they run out of cannon balls due to misses,  spread out damage, and everything else and have to run away before that brig sinks. Sure you can sink anyone that is incompetent and unprepared, but literally no one cares about them.

standard brigs have 6k health planks, 3 large cannons, if they all hit the same plank, do 5250 damage, so, they can just turn and repair it, over and over.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Evir

[Mike L 71]

I do agree with you, that schooners outclass Brigantines for most purposes. 

I dont agree that large cannons are now useless. 

My main point was you cant catch or shoot at a schooner that does have only a few large cannons on the back, your saying that schooner will never sink anything. 

Maybe it wont, but you cant really sink it or catch it either. 

If you sink someone trying this strat then that boat needed a different captain. 

I would only count sinking their boat as winning though. 

Its literally a you can run but you cant hide situation if this schooner that only has 3 cannons is chasing you, and watching where you go. 

I deffinately see your point with schooners vs brigantines, you say my point that large cannon have twice the range is invalid and that they cant be used at that range. They can be used at this range. They dont have to one shot ya, just run you out of planks. 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Mike L

[Evir 38]

55 minutes ago, Mike L said:

I do agree with you, that schooners outclass Brigantines for most purposes. 

I dont agree that large cannons are now useless. 

My main point was you cant catch or shoot at a schooner that does have only a few large cannons on the back, your saying that schooner will never sink anything. 

Maybe it wont, but you cant really sink it or catch it either. 

If you sink someone trying this strat then that boat needed a different captain. 

I would only count sinking their boat as winning though. 

Its literally a you can run but you cant hide situation if this schooner that only has 3 cannons is chasing you, and watching where you go. 

I deffinately see your point with schooners vs brigantines, you say my point that large cannon have twice the range is invalid and that they cant be used at that range. They can be used at this range. They dont have to one shot ya, just run you out of planks. 

 

 

Most competent PVPers carry 20-30 or so planks on brigs and if they have gun ports, several of those also. they basically can replace their entire ship, It weighs much less than the base repair materials. 20 planks is 320 weight. 
The SOP for schooners is 15 planks.

It will take quite a while to run them out of planks, with just 3 large cannons. This is why almost all ship vs ship PVP in atlas is inconclusive. I have seen ships lose half their planks in a fight, replace them, then keep going, then get back to their port.

The way to actually sink ships is to blow off a ton of panels at in a short amount of time, force the crew to react to that, instead of continuing the fight, That was why those galleons with 16 large cannon broad sides with blue print cannons that do 130-160% damage would destroy basic ships. Doing 3.5k- 4k damage per cannonball, 16 times would delete multiple planks at a time. Now you are looking at blueprint medium cannons pushing 1800-2k damage per shot firing nearly twice as fast with ships being faster, (current large 160% large cannons do 2800 damage per shot)  due to the lack of need of metal to repair gun ports, and canon balls being less than 1/3 of the weight.

If you really want to insist on this 3 cannon schooner being more powerful, you can make a schooner with 4 medium cannons, up front, then stay just to the left or right of the "3 large cannons schooner" out of its firing arc and be faster, and do more damage, and have the ability to hit him over and over, while he cant hit you. You can even have a flame swivel, get close enough and burn their sails, and still be faster than they are.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Evir

[Mike L 71]

Wow, so you add more stuff to a schooner and get lower on weight, how would you manage that?

Ohh you said mediums, that would be less weight but only less by enough to get your boat hit several times by those 3 large cannons.

Also large cannons on the back will have a further range since you would be sailing into them trying to chase it, you try that corner strat they will just turn and fire. 

Anyways wasn't trying to completely derail your post here, was just stating that large cannons still have range as an advantage. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Mike L

[Evir 38]

20 minutes ago, Mike L said:

Wow, so you add more stuff to a schooner and get lower on weight, how would you manage that?

Ohh you said mediums, that would be less weight but only less by enough to get your boat hit several times by those 3 large cannons.

Also large cannons on the back will have a further range since you would be sailing into them trying to chase it, you try that corner strat they will just turn and fire. 

Anyways wasn't trying to completely derail your post here, was just stating that large cannons still have range as an advantage. 

Because medium ship cannons weigh less than large cannons, and large cannonballs way far more than medium cannonballs.

How is this hard to understand, it is simple math. medium cannonballs weigh 3kg, large weigh 10, medium cannons weigh 100kg, large weigh 140kg

3 large cannons weigh 420kg, 4 medium cannons weigh 400kg

200 medium cannons weigh 600kg, 100 large cannonballs weigh 1000kg and you have a much higher damage potential with the 200 medium cannonballs. (you can insert whatever number of cannonballs for each you want) You still have the issue if you reduce the number of cannonballs on both that you can carry 2.33 more medium cannon balls more than large cannon balls.

You can get away with more if you put them in gunports and sail right up next to the ship, but that limits you quite a bit.

You can dodge max range large cannon balls win a schooner just watch for the fire, cut sails and turn, it isnt that big of a deal, you act like everything happens in a vaccuum.
Range is not a huge deal, especially on rough seas, you will miss most of your shots, as you bob up and down you tend to over or under shoot at long range.


I just do not see the point in the 3 large cannon schooners outside of farming SotD and scouting, they tend to do little more than annoy people, I have yet to see any of them sink a ship that is ready to fight them, I have seen them gank parked ships, bad captains that just eat the cannon shots and do not have planks to replace them, and unarmed ships, but never a ship with a competent captain.
I have never sank to one, though I have sank one with a bad captain that didnt control his sails properly, and my large frontal cannons(pre-nerf) took out his small sail and I was easily able to catch him after that.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Evir

[Mike L 71]

Your saying dps always beats range to put it simply, to the point that range has no relevance. 

I think both matter depending on the situation and players. 

But I find it very annoying that it's more efficient for weight just to put cannons on the top deck and forget about gunports. 

I like the gunports there cool and work well but just add too much weight. 

EDIT: actually gunports are fine, didn't realize when they changed crafting cost they made them same weight as planks, instead of 100  weight for a gunport. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Mike L

[kampfer91 58]

WELL ? You PVP want to nerf large cannon and the 1-side cannon build , you got it !

Edited February 13, 2019 by kampfer91

[DocHolliday 366]

Cannons using gunports should get a buff or cannons not using them get a debuff.  Would change the meta we see with cannons all over the front and rear ends of ships.  Most ships I see now do not use gunports. 

[Teach 79]

Give us actual fore & aft gunports- limit cannons to 2x the amount of gunports. (So you can optionally have the additional layer on top deck if you choose to add the weight).

Make large cannons 1.5x heavier and access to bar-shot. (So they're viable as a long range slow)

Large cannons were never meant to be a ship vs ship meta that out-shined medium cannons. Large cannons are predominantly designed for land siege and pursuit/escape vectors (front/rear). The imbalance of damage they caused on ships atop their added range for only 40 extra weight made them way too viable as a total replacement for mediums.

[Zlax 41]

20 hours ago, Teach said:

Give us actual fore & aft gunports- limit cannons to 2x the amount of gunports. (So you can optionally have the additional layer on top deck if you choose to add the weight).

Make large cannons 1.5x heavier and access to bar-shot. (So they're viable as a long range slow)

Large cannons were never meant to be a ship vs ship meta that out-shined medium cannons. Large cannons are predominantly designed for land siege and pursuit/escape vectors (front/rear). The imbalance of damage they caused on ships atop their added range for only 40 extra weight made them way too viable as a total replacement for mediums.

Maybe add a range buff to mediums in gun ports? Or maybe a better solution, would be to simply nerf the fire rate and accuracy / range of any cannon not mounted in a gun port, would make sense wouldnt it?

Edited February 24, 2019 by Zlax