-------------------

[Vaenix 131]

Just now, wildbill said:

Yes, taxation is griefing. If you don't think so, then you probably have a bank and are one of the griefers.

Taxation is a game mechanic made in heaven for griefers. They can block resources from players and all they need to do is maintain a system of flags. This is way easier than pillaring all of the resources. Every griefer is laughing on the way to their bank with this system.

So taxation in real life. Is that the government griefing you and preventing you from having all the things you need?  

I'm posting this assuming you are actually an adult and not some child who hasn't had to experience the real world before.

[Chucksteak 279]

3 minutes ago, wildbill said:

Yes, taxation is griefing. If you don't think so, then you probably have a bank and are one of the griefers.

.... and all they need to do is maintain a system of flags.

Not really. The taxed person can just leave and go to a better taxed location.

The oweness is on the taxer to both maintain thier claim and make it worth being there. The taxed person can always claim it and flip the scenario.

[wildbill 142]

I stopped playing on officials when I saw what a mess the flag claim system was. The real problem is the claim system. If the claim system was implemented in a way that players only claimed the land they were using and maybe a bit more for resources, the bank system with taxation would be fine.

The taxation system should be there to limit how much other players harvest on land you are actively using. Land that you need for your resources and buildings. Not for land that you only travel to to maintain flags and you only have to tax other players who collect resources.

Fix the claim system to reduce the number that players can have and the taxation system will do what it should be doing.

3 minutes ago, Vaenix said:

So taxation in real life. Is that the government griefing you and preventing you from having all the things you need?  

I'm posting this assuming you are actually an adult and not some child who hasn't had to experience the real world before.

Yes, I'm an adult. 

Talking about real life here is irrelevant. Where in real life have you seen griefers that pillar off an entire island? This is not anything like real, so get real and stick to the subject of the game.

[wildbill 142]

2 minutes ago, Chucksteak said:

Not really. The taxed person can just leave and go to a better taxed location.

The oweness is on the taxer to both maintain thier claim and make it worth being there. The taxed person can always claim it and flip the scenario.

You assume that land is an unlimited resource and so are the resources. Neither is true. Some resources are available in only a few spots and land is limited, or else there would not be so many people complaining they can't find any.

You also assume that there are no griefers claiming land and taxing it just because they can and charging the full 30%. They will never lower the rate. Like other's have said, a griefer would charge 99% if they could.

[Vaenix 131]

Just now, wildbill said:

I stopped playing on officials when I saw what a mess the flag claim system was. The real problem is the claim system. If the claim system was implemented in a way that players only claimed the land they were using and maybe a bit more for resources, the bank system with taxation would be fine.

The taxation system should be there to limit how much other players harvest on land you are actively using. Land that you need for your resources and buildings. Not for land that you only travel to to maintain flags and you only have to tax other players who collect resources.

Fix the claim system to reduce the number that players can have and the taxation system will do what it should be doing.

So you are quite literally asking for a system to be nerfed on official that you don't use because you disagree with it and already don't use it?  Makes total sense.

[Shintai 117]

8 minutes ago, Vaenix said:

So taxation in real life. Is that the government griefing you and preventing you from having all the things you need?  

I'm posting this assuming you are actually an adult and not some child who hasn't had to experience the real world before.

You get something back from your tax. on PvE you get nothing back, it´s a one way road.

[Vaenix 131]

Just now, Shintai said:

You get something back from your tax. on PvE you get nothing back, it´s a one way road.

Are you sure about that? 

Most PvE players that I've met generally stop by and see if you need any help with anything.  Have open taming pens readily available.  And will take you out to any resource you are looking for in  the area.  They also tend to hunt down the alpha critters/predators on their claims to help encourage farming the resources. 

[Shintai 117]

3 minutes ago, Vaenix said:

Are you sure about that? 

Most PvE players that I've met generally stop by and see if you need any help with anything.  Have open taming pens readily available.  And will take you out to any resource you are looking for in  the area.  They also tend to hunt down the alpha critters/predators on their claims to help encourage farming the resources. 

Yes I am sure. This is also why the tax system is ok on PvP, you actually get something back.

Wow a few taming pens and need to kill the needed alphas now and then. please, either you are just directly trolling or simply clueless. My company alone can build a freaking galleon every 2 days from 5% taxes and we pretty much do NOTHING. Our most mundane task daily is to move resources from our bank and down in storage.

Don´t try and polish the aristocracy this setup created with some sugar coated BS. We are LOVED on our claims for only taking 5%. But the concept is as said, FLAWED on PvE.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Shintai

[Vaenix 131]

Just now, Shintai said:

Yes I am sure. This is also why the tax system is ok on PvP, you actually get something back.

Interesting where all have you gone then cuz we've had completely difference experiences on the same game mode.

[Shintai 117]

2 minutes ago, Vaenix said:

Interesting where all have you gone then cuz we've had completely difference experiences on the same game mode.

If you want to defend your golden cow for endless milking then do it correctly. Don´t try and act like you are some god given devotion to the rest of the plebs you take tax from. Say it as it is.

[Vaenix 131]

1 minute ago, Shintai said:

If you want to defend your golden cow for endless milking then do it correctly. Don´t try and act like you are some god given devotion to the rest of the plebs you take tax from. Say it as it is.

Ah so the answer is you haven't actually travelled at all you are just here to be a dick.  Got it.  I'm not acting like anything I simply asked where you have been because I've travelled quite a lot on official and not had the same experience at all. 

[Shintai 117]

Just now, Vaenix said:

Ah so the answer is you haven't actually travelled at all you are just here to be a dick.  Got it.  I'm not acting like anything I simply asked where you have been because I've travelled quite a lot on official and not had the same experience at all. 

We travel a lot because we have time and resources for it. Why don´t you just say it as it is? You, like, we, won the Atlas lottery. We are now the feudal elite.

Personally I am happy I don´t have to see the freaking circus at our base to farm and have it all automatically delivered. And as long as others take 20-30%, we can even be the good guys in the wheel of bad vs worse.

[wildbill 142]

13 minutes ago, Vaenix said:

So you are quite literally asking for a system to be nerfed on official that you don't use because you disagree with it and already don't use it?  Makes total sense.

Yes, for two main reasons:

1) I also see it on unofficials with PVE servers. I don't think taxation belongs in PVE at all and should be removed if the claim system remains wide open like it is currently. Like I said, fix the claim system and the taxation system will be fine (I won't like it, but it won't affect me really).

2) I think the taxation system along with the crappy claim system are ruining the game and I'd like to see Atlas succeed.

Edited February 4, 2019 by wildbill

[Vaenix 131]

Just now, Shintai said:

We travel a lot because we have time and resources for it. Why don´t you just say it as it is? You, like, we, won the Atlas lottery. We are now the feudal elite.

Personally I am happy I don´t have to see the freaking circus at our base to farm and have it all automatically delivered. And as long as others take 20-30%, we can even be the good guys in the wheel of bad vs worse.

Because I don't think 20-30% is necessarily reasonable but I also think that the system needs to be more robust.  Right now it seems to be very limited.  I'm in a company of 50+  I didn't win the lottery I had to actually work to get what I have.

1 minute ago, wildbill said:

Yes, for two main reasons:

1) I also see it on unofficials with PVE server. I don't think taxation belongs in PVE at all and should be removed if the claim system remains wide open like it is currently. Like I said, fix the claim system and the taxation system will be fine (I won't like it, but it won't affect me really).

2) I think the taxation system along with the crappy claim system are ruining the game and I'd like to see Atlas succeed.

If you see it on an unofficial then you are welcome to join a different one.  You are not forced to play on any given unofficial since you have already opted out of official entirely.

A large amount of games use taxation systems, this isn't the first and won't be the last.  There just has to be more added to it.  And there isn't really a claim system issue other than the overlaps.  I know every solo like you wants their own island but that's just not reasonable.

[Shintai 117]

3 minutes ago, Vaenix said:

Because I don't think 20-30% is necessarily reasonable but I also think that the system needs to be more robust.  Right now it seems to be very limited.  I'm in a company of 50+  I didn't win the lottery I had to actually work to get what I have.

It still doesn´t belong to PvE. Doesn´t matter if its 1, 5, 10 or 30%. Let´s be honest here, unless our companies stop playing or make blatant mistakes. This land is forever ours with an forever tax on it. Unlike PvP where you can actively change it and have something in return for your tax.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Shintai

[MeatSammich 214]

You say you can build a galleon every 2 days with a 5% tax. That sounds like you have a huge amount of claims. With 9 claims at 15%, if I get 1k wood, thatch and fiber, and 300 metal, its a good day.

Smaller claim number landowners have the ability to be more involved with the people running around on their claims. When you own 100+ claims, you can't be expected to be everywhere. I can see all 9 of my claims from my base, and tend to go over and see if they need anything, when I see people on them.

Everyone plays the game differently. Some people want to hold as much land as possible. Some people want to have a claim or two, sit on their porch and yell at others to get off their lawn, some people want to be social and help others. Thats the cool thing about sandbox style. You can play how you want to. Your milage may vary based on what you choose to do.

[Vaenix 131]

1 minute ago, Shintai said:

It still doesn´t below to PvE. Doesn´t matter if its 1, 5, 10 or 30%. Let´s be honest here, unless our companies stop playing or make blatant mistakes. This land is forever ours with an forever tax on it. Unlike PvP where you can actively change it and have something in return for your tax.

There may be a direct impact to you in PvP that you can easily see from a taxation aspect.  A lot of the same still applies to PvE.  There just isn't any kind of system in place to make it more robust yet.  

 

2 minutes ago, MeatSammich said:

You say you can build a galleon every 2 days with a 5% tax. That sounds like you have a huge amount of claims. With 9 claims at 15%, if I get 1k wood, thatch and fiber, and 300 metal, its a good day.

Smaller claim number landowners have the ability to be more involved with the people running around on their claims. When you own 100+ claims, you can't be expected to be everywhere. I can see all 9 of my claims from my base, and tend to go over and see if they need anything, when I see people on them.

Everyone plays the game differently. Some people want to hold as much land as possible. Some people want to have a claim or two, sit on their porch and yell at others to get off their lawn, some people want to be social and help others. Thats the cool thing about sandbox style. You can play how you want to. Your milage may vary based on what you choose to do.

Honestly if you reduce it to 5% and advertise that fact with enough land(5-10 claims) you could likely build a galleon in a day.  I've had rates set to as low as 10% with roughly that same amount(farmable land not including overlap protection in the water)  and seen as much as 10k metal and 30k wood/thatch in a day it all comes down to how many people have built over the resources on the rest of the islands in the region.  

[wildbill 142]

2 minutes ago, Vaenix said:

Because I don't think 20-30% is necessarily reasonable but I also think that the system needs to be more robust.  Right now it seems to be very limited.  I'm in a company of 50+  I didn't win the lottery I had to actually work to get what I have.

If you see it on an unofficial then you are welcome to join a different one.  You are not forced to play on any given unofficial since you have already opted out of official entirely.

A large amount of games use taxation systems, this isn't the first and won't be the last.  There just has to be more added to it.  And there isn't really a claim system issue other than the overlaps.  I know every solo like you wants their own island but that's just not reasonable.

No, you get me completely wrong. I don't want my own island. I'm annoyed by those that think that is reasonable or even necessary. Having your own island is a fantasy I don't see the point of living out in a game. I also don't make huge castles just for looks, I make stuff that is functional, and owning an island is not even remotely that.

This is the first game I've played with a taxation system. I assume if you tax, you must have land claims. Land claims are necessary to support the taxation system. Also if done properly, I'm guessing the taxation system could be seen as a way to ensure that those that use it, will ensure that people can use their land, so it should limit the installation of gates and other means to block access to resources. 

It could work, but currently the implementation we have is very poor in my opinion.

[Shintai 117]

1 minute ago, MeatSammich said:

You say you can build a galleon every 2 days with a 5% tax. That sounds like you have a huge amount of claims. With 9 claims at 15%, if I get 1k wood, thatch and fiber, and 300 metal, its a good day.

Smaller claim number landowners have the ability to be more involved with the people running around on their claims. When you own 100+ claims, you can't be expected to be everywhere. I can see all 9 of my claims from my base, and tend to go over and see if they need anything, when I see people on them.

Everyone plays the game differently. Some people want to hold as much land as possible. Some people want to have a claim or two, sit on their porch and yell at others to get off their lawn, some people want to be social and help others. Thats the cool thing about sandbox style. You can play how you want to. Your milage may vary based on what you choose to do.

We have the best spots, huge amounts of all resources on them. Plenty of metal nodes etc.

15% claims may leave people with the feeling it´s not worth it. Your claims may not be in a suitable good location or have a desired amount of resources on it. The second biggest land owner on the tile isn't even getting a fraction of what we get, despite high taxes.

The problem on PvE is that despite having good or bad claims. Please tend to keep them because...what if?

1 minute ago, Vaenix said:

There may be a direct impact to you in PvP that you can easily see from a taxation aspect.  A lot of the same still applies to PvE.  There just isn't any kind of system in place to make it more robust yet.  

The entire claim system is designed for PvP and just smacked onto PvE without considering that it simply creates an aristocracy.

[MeatSammich 214]

3 minutes ago, Vaenix said:

There may be a direct impact to you in PvP that you can easily see from a taxation aspect.  A lot of the same still applies to PvE.  There just isn't any kind of system in place to make it more robust yet.  

 

Honestly if you reduce it to 5% and advertise that fact with enough land(5-10 claims) you could likely build a galleon in a day.  I've had rates set to as low as 10% with roughly that same amount(farmable land not including overlap protection in the water)  and seen as much as 10k metal and 30k wood/thatch in a day it all comes down to how many people have built over the resources on the rest of the islands in the region.  

 

2 minutes ago, Shintai said:

We have the best spots, huge amounts of all resources on them. Plenty of metal nodes etc.

15% claims may leave people with the feeling it´s not worth it. Your claims may not be in a suitable good location or have a desired amount of resources on it. The second biggest land owner on the tile isn't even getting a fraction of what we get, despite high taxes.

The problem on PvE is that despite having good or bad claims. Please tend to keep them because...what if?

The majority of the people around me are running the 30% tax, so a good amount of people still harvest it. My problem is that my tropical island is like 50 foot wide beaches, with a mountain in the middle. Out of my 9 claims, 5 are land, 4 overlapping water, and theres a total of 20ish trees, combined, so the limiting factor is respawn time. If lower the tax, it lowers the yield a good amount. If I don't have any tax, the neighbors take all the trees, and I don't get to build at all, unless I wait for respawn. Now, stone, I can harvest all day, but no matter how hard I try, I can't build a galleon out of rocks.

[Vaenix 131]

8 minutes ago, wildbill said:

No, you get me completely wrong. I don't want my own island. I'm annoyed by those that think that is reasonable or even necessary. Having your own island is a fantasy I don't see the point of living out in a game. I also don't make huge castles just for looks, I make stuff that is functional, and owning an island is not even remotely that.

This is the first game I've played with a taxation system. I assume if you tax, you must have land claims. Land claims are necessary to support the taxation system. Also if done properly, I'm guessing the taxation system could be seen as a way to ensure that those that use it, will ensure that people can use their land, so it should limit the installation of gates and other means to block access to resources. 

It could work, but currently the implementation we have is very poor in my opinion.

I don't see owning an island as unreasonable, provided you've got the people to support it.  Which is why I'm against solos who think that it's reasonable for them to own an island on their own.  I'm 100% ok with a large alliance building a small city together on an island and owning that. 

I completely agree with you that there need to be changes to make it more worth it.  Right now it's entirely left up to the player to do that.  I'd like to see a complete system built around the tenant system that allows a more robust interaction so that taxes aren't always necessary but really just the base thing left for when players come and go to an island(not for tenants).

[wildbill 142]

9 minutes ago, MeatSammich said:

 

The majority of the people around me are running the 30% tax, so a good amount of people still harvest it. My problem is that my tropical island is like 50 foot wide beaches, with a mountain in the middle. Out of my 9 claims, 5 are land, 4 overlapping water, and theres a total of 20ish trees, combined, so the limiting factor is respawn time. If lower the tax, it lowers the yield a good amount. If I don't have any tax, the neighbors take all the trees, and I don't get to build at all, unless I wait for respawn. Now, stone, I can harvest all day, but no matter how hard I try, I can't build a galleon out of rocks.

Yes, this is what taxation is supposed to do. It limits how much harvesting happens around your base and provides you enough resources should people completely harvest every tree, bush, and rock.

9 minutes ago, Vaenix said:

I don't see owning an island as unreasonable, provided you've got the people to support it.  Which is why I'm against solos who think that it's reasonable for them to own an island on their own.  I'm 100% ok with a large alliance building a small city together on an island and owning that. 

I completely agree with you that there need to be changes to make it more worth it.  Right now it's entirely left up to the player to do that.  I'd like to see a complete system built around the tenant system that allows a more robust interaction so that taxes aren't always necessary but really just the base thing left for when players come and go to an island(not for tenants).

Yes, a large group that actually needs that much land for all their resources, that makes sense. On one large unoffical server, I saw one small groups quest to own an entire island. They did everything they could to get as many claims down as they could, even though they had no need for that many resources. All over the server it was that way, land claims with no actual buildings anywhere near them. 

When a land claim system has basically no limits, you will have players pushing that limit, that is just how some people are, and it makes for very poor game play for those that have to play with them.

It just takes a few players to ruin it for everyone. I have no way to know the numbers, but I can imagine 10% of the players claiming 90% of of the land, leaving the other 10% for the majority of the players. This can happen on unofficials too, and what might seem like a nice server can turn to crap very quickly when one of these players shows up. It might take a week or two for the server admin to take notice and "correct" the situation, but until then that is a week of game play that has a sour taste to it.

This needs to get high priority and fixed to make land hording impossible. On PvP it is somewhat self correcting, but if they can't fix it, then taxation should be removed from PvE altogether. I'm optimistic that it can be fixed, because it does seem to server some purpose when used on "your own land". 

[Shintai 117]

First attempt on a solution could be easy.

1. Remove all sea flags. (I think they even wanted this once in patch notes.)

2. 3 free flags per company, 1 gold per hour per extra flag.

3. Automatically remove flags with a set period after their timer. For example 1 week later. So assuming nobody declaim, at worst a flag would vanish after 4 weeks.

4. Remove any possible overlapping of enemy flags, including when you flag bomb.

I bet you this would remove ~70-80% of all current land claims and of course all sea claims.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Shintai

[wildbill 142]

21 minutes ago, Shintai said:

First attempt on a solution could be easy.

1. Remove all sea flags. (I think they even wanted this once in patch notes.)

2. 3 free flags per company, 1 gold per hour per extra flag.

3. Automatically remove flags with a set period after their timer. For example 1 week later. So assuming nobody declaim, at worst a flag would vanish after 4 weeks.

4. Remove any possible overlapping of enemy flags, including when you flag bomb.

I bet you this would remove ~70-80% of all current land claims and of course all sea claims.

Yes. Why is there not some kind of maintenance charge for each claim over a maximum amount that you get free?

If they add this, it would be nice if they add more ways to get gold than there are currently. 

Also why is there no way to remove your flag without traveling to it?

[Lynx 92]

3 hours ago, wildbill said:

The taxation system should be there to limit how much other players harvest on land you are actively using. Land that you need for your resources and buildings.

They need to add a land designation system to land claim. Like nature preserve and town, or more.