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Graylance Ravenwind

Bow vs Guns after v10

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Hello all!

 

Instead of bashing the change, I decided to go and lay out the current state of the bows and firearms in general for myself. I like thinking and taking notes, so I am just going to go through this for myself while taking notes in here. As I do so for myself, you will get to reap the information I gather. So let's go to it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Reload Timers------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bow Reload Timers Test

Quick Draw shot = 1 sec

Full Draw shot = 3 sec

Pistol Reload Timers Test

NO RELOAD SPEED BONUSES

Perfect Reload = 15 seconds

Auto Reload =  19 seconds

Spam click (complete failure ) = 20  seconds

_____________________________________________

+30% Reload Speed

image.png.f1f543f1d9fd024e80c937388765fe84.png 

Perfect Reload = 12 seconds

Auto Reload = 16 seconds

Spam click (complete failure ) = 17  seconds

____________________________________________

Carbine Reload Timers Test

Perfect Reload = 15 seconds

Auto Reload = 20 seconds

Spam click (complete failure ) = 21 seconds

____________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------DPS TESTS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Test #1

Object: Training Dummy

Bow skills = 0

All Gun Reload Skills.

Bow :  4 x shots at 35 dmg each Dummy DPS score of 28

Pistol: 1 x shots at 90 dmg each Dummy DPS score of 18

Carbine: 1 x shot at 160 dmg each Dummy DPS score of 32

I don't trust this meter since it has a flawed truncated calculation method based on 5 second rule.

Test #2

Object:  lvl 7 Giraffe Field Test

  • Carbine shot = 136 Dmg
    • Extrapolated Perfect Reload DPS: 136/15 = 9.06
    • Extrapolated Auto Reload DPS: 136/20= 6.8
    • Extrapolated Spam Click Reload DPS: 136/21 = 6.48

 

  • Flintlock Shot No Buffs = 75 Dmg
    • Extrapolated Perfect Reload DPS: 75/15 = 5
    • Extrapolated Auto Reload DPS: 75/20= 3.95
    • Extrapolated Spam Click Reload DPS: 75/21 = 3.75

 

  • Flintlock Shot +30% Reload Buff = 75 Dmg
    • Extrapolated Perfect Reload DPS: 75/12 = 6.25
    • Extrapolated Auto Reload DPS: 75/16= 4.69
    • Extrapolated Spam Click Reload DPS: 75/17 = 4.41

 

  • Bow Shot No Buff = 34 Dmg
    • Extrapolated Quick  DPS: 34/1 = 34
    • Extrapolated Full Reload DPS: 34/3 = 11.33

 

In this controlled test we are able to see that the Bow wins even with 0 buffs. However, this example does not include a situation where multiple pistols are worn and the switch can be done within 2 seconds between each shot, but even in that specific case the damage of the pistols would go up to about 37.5 in which case the pistol would win the damage race.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------SKILL POINT COST------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let us look however on the other side of the problem that is caused by this firearms nerf. The problem is the investment cost of Bow vs. Firearm

First cost is in Skill Points:

Bow requires these skills: Tools of Trade (1 point) > Archery (3 points) totaling 4 points for non-buffed damage explored above.

Flintlock requires these skills: Tools of Trade (1 point) > Archery (3 points)> Ballistic Studies (2 points) > Improved Ballistic Studies (4 Points) > Expert ballistic Studies (10 Points) > Sapper (6 points) > Firearms Unlock (4 Points) > Pistol Basics (2 points) a total of :

  1. 32 points for 0% reload buff weapon crafting; (32 total)
  2. +14 points for +30% reload buff; (46 total)
  3. +24 points for Carbine unlock; (70 total)

Bow once again wins in accessibility and point cost.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CRAFTING and MAINTENANCE COST------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second is the Crafting and Maintenance Costs:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bow    (Can Be crafted anywhere!)

  • 60 fiber
  • 6 Hide
  • 22 Wood

Bow Repair 1/2 resources:

  • 30 Fiber
  • 3 Hide
  • 11 Wood

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flintlock  (Crafted ONLY at the Smithy!)

  • 16 Flint
  • 18 Hide
  • 36 Metal
  • 8 Oil
  • 22 Wood

Flintlock Repair 1/2 resources:

  • 8 Flint
  • 9 Hide
  • 18 Metal
  • 4 Oil
  • 11 Wood

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carbine (Crafted ONLY at the Smithy!)

  • 65 Alloy
  • 3 Flint
  • 32 Hide
  • 20 Oil
  • 85 Wood

Carbine Repair 1/2 cost:

  • 33 Alloy
  • 2 Flint
  • 16 Hide
  • 10 Oil
  • 43 Wood

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, yet again Bow wins!

Last but not least the per bullet cost as well as accessibility of resources in materials goes up exponentially when we compare Bow to Flintlock and Carbine making per shot cost yet again in favor of the bow.

 

Sadly, bows are currently the most powerful weapon and the cheapest weapon with ease of access in our hands, at least when it comes to culling the wildlife.

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

image.png

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Quiet you!

You trying to get the bow nerfed so we have no means to efficiently kill things?

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NoNo ! Please dont tell them or they take my 2-shot-everybody flame arrows away😖

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Look at bow dmg on armored target, 4 dmg to leather armor, 0-1 dmg to plate armor

Edited by Bad News Bear
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who cares what does more dmg. with bullets (10% of the time ) / arrows just sticking into animals because of failed hit reg it doesnt matter either way lol

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10 minutes ago, Bad News Bear said:

Look at bow dmg on armored target, 4 dmg to leather armor, 0-1 dmg to plate armor

Which means crap on PvE cause we practically ever fight unarmored stuff. 
And this comparison didn't even touch fire arrows.

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I would like to point out that you also have much better likelihood of hitting your target using a firearm than a bow as the projectiles are near instant impact and can travel much further with no arc to take into consideration.

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due to kinetic energy though, a bow will always do more damage than a gun. Especially against ball bearing bullets.

 

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Does strong arm actualy work?, seen somewhere on forum that the bow dmg perks don't work an don't wanna waste points.

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you cant expect much from devs that not even play their own game! V10 was the worst they made so far, ive seen so many guys quitting the game after V10, weapons are a totally bust now and useless, they don't worth the cost of skill points!

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29 minutes ago, Leebum said:

due to kinetic energy though, a bow will always do more damage than a gun. Especially against ball bearing bullets.

 

Cant compare modern firearms to flintlocks.  

The average modern firearm is either a 7.62 or 5.56mm those are the most common rounds currently on the market.  

Your typical flintlock used in the age of sail... 1700-1840, was a .58 to .70cal round.   or 14.7mm to 18mm round!

Modern bullets are aerodynamic... old ball shot was not.  

Modern bullets are usually copper jacketed with a variable core, some are steel, some are tungsten, some are pewter/lead, others are solid copper.

Round shot was almost always lead, stone, or iron.

 

My point is those youtube videos are a joke.  I can do the exact same test and have a result that I want to convey.  

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What about armor piercing? Naked dps is only relevant in wildlife killing.  

I can hit people in plate armor with a pistol for 120dmg headshots. Stone arrows are useless against plate while flame arrows 6s gorund fire does around 70 dmg to players.  

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I pretty much came to the conclusion bows are now superior to guns in PVE in just about every way before you went to all this trouble, but this validates my findings. 

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If you really to go for a loop.  Factor in spears... There is really no reload timer on them, they stack, and they are kind of cheap to make.  Without buffs you can throw them and hit for in the 40s consistently.   I never bothered with bows after a while because I found I use spears far more often for fishing and other day to day hunting activities.

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Interesting. You clearly have more knowledge than me on firearms. 

My point being that the 2 foot or more length of an arrows with a metal head or in Atlas sharp flint has more kinetic energy to drive into a target.

So an 18mm bullet vs 2 foot arrow must have variable results due to speed and target density. However, as i stated, my main point is the kinetic energy transfer from arrows vs bullets.

 

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Firearms are not suppose to be a DPS weapon you use face to face with an enemy in prolonged battle while furiously reloading. 

Carbines are for longer range shooting. The DPS difference is undefined, since you are not hitting with the bow at the range you want to be using a carbine. A shot to the head kills a wolf. It is a good weapon to clear the shoreline before landing, well out of range of any trouble. 

Flintocks are for closer range, but you swap them out after you use the pre-loaded shot. They are for spike damage on the desired target before engaging with a bow or melee. 

The great benefit of firearms comes when you have multiple players and are coordinating your shots to spike specific targets. 

Edited by pyrate27
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2 minutes ago, pyrate27 said:

Firearms are not suppose to be a DPS weapon you use face to face with an enemy in prolonged battle while furiously reloading. 

Carbines are for longer range shooting. The DPS difference is infinite, since you are not hitting with the bow at the range you want to be using a carbine. 

Flintocks are for closer range, but you swap them out after you use the pre-loaded shot. They are for spike damage on the desired target before engaging with a bow or melee. 

The great benefit of firearms comes when you have multiple players and are coordinating your shots to spike specific targets. 

Like this. Very logical

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11 minutes ago, pyrate27 said:

Firearms are not suppose to be a DPS weapon you use face to face with an enemy in prolonged battle while furiously reloading. 

Carbines are for longer range shooting. The DPS difference is undefined, since you are not hitting with the bow at the range you want to be using a carbine. A shot to the head kills a wolf. It is a good weapon to clear the shoreline before landing, well out of range of any trouble. 

Flintocks are for closer range, but you swap them out after you use the pre-loaded shot. They are for spike damage on the desired target before engaging with a bow or melee. 

The great benefit of firearms comes when you have multiple players and are coordinating your shots to spike specific targets. 

Except there's 3 wolves charging in that respawn every 3-5 minutes and they take 2-3 headshots now from a flintlock (the 20+ lvl wolves or something like that take up to 3 headshots right now) so we don't care about any burst damage when they clearly have no burst, we can do as much dmg as a flintlock with 2 arrows that can shoot in 2 seconds, other than carbine everything sucks against wildlife now, only carbine is able to one-shot a wolf in the head an the ammo and fixing of guns takes resources much more expensive than just a bunch of grass, sticks and stones as the bow + the bow have dmg perks (not sure if they work tho) which even further makes it better than guns. Blunderbuss is junk right now, 21 dmg from bodyshoot per pellet so even a full face of shotgun it won't kill a higher lvl wolf in 1 shoot even when all 8 pellets hit... which they almost never do unless calmly aiming at their head sticking thro the wall.

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55 minutes ago, pyrate27 said:

Firearms are not suppose to be a DPS weapon you use face to face with an enemy in prolonged battle while furiously reloading. 

Carbines are for longer range shooting. The DPS difference is undefined, since you are not hitting with the bow at the range you want to be using a carbine. A shot to the head kills a wolf. It is a good weapon to clear the shoreline before landing, well out of range of any trouble. 

Flintocks are for closer range, but you swap them out after you use the pre-loaded shot. They are for spike damage on the desired target before engaging with a bow or melee. 

The great benefit of firearms comes when you have multiple players and are coordinating your shots to spike specific targets. 

Quote

Sadly, bows are currently the most powerful weapon and the cheapest weapon with ease of access in our hands, at least when it comes to culling the wildlife.

Hope this helps.

I have no prejudgment about guns or bows, I am just stating the observations I made. I agree with you on the idea of how these weapons should work, but at the current state they are not working in that exact fashion.

However, I do have a certain efficiency stance on the subject matter - the absolute value of the cost for the guns and bows (in terms of attribute point investment and material cost) versus their efficiency is what bugs me a little bit. In my personal opinion, these resources and points would be better spent on other skills and passives.

 

Thank you! 

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