Death should have consequences...

[Realist 504]

7 minutes ago, Incarnate said:

@Realist - The thing is, what they should realize is that whenever people are playing around / exploiting other mechanics to avoid the intended gameplay, they should focus on how they can make it so that the intended gameplay still will be working as closely as what they intended it to be, they should also try to make it in way where it cannot be exploited. So for instance, when they see players just ignoring the intended gameplay around the starvation, dehydration and vitamin deficiencies, by quickly dying and then respawning nearby with no negative detriments, they should use that information to fix in a way where there intended gameplay still becomes prevailing gameplay in regards to how people try to get around it, by introducing other mechanics, like for instance making death matter through putting consequences of dying in.

So obviously, before they make aging matter, they need to have the effects of this gameplay narrowed down, so they can make it in a way that can't be exploited, where especially if they were to make it so death would hasten the need to for a new body, that would be extremely stupid and very much exploitable. UNLESS, they were to make mechanics around it that would make very difficult and very risky to even attempt, but still where the gameplay around it would be fun and where players who're not trying to exploit mechanics around it, are not getting punished for playing.

As I said, before they make age matter, they need the rest of gameplay narrowed down - currently they should disable age, and narrow down how to improve the core gameplay in their game, there are so many other things they need to get working properly, like wildlife, like playerdriven trade - and it should work for both PvE and PvP.
 

 

 

Yeah they definitely should do that. Wildcard hasn’t done any of that in 3 years but they should do that.

dont get me started on trade though. They are already making trade worse by making taming easier and adding 2x resources. Trade won’t be a thing in pvp. That is easy raid time there.

if they make dying that bad of a thing and have heavy consequences then the noobs or any new comers are just going to walk away. I think they don’t bother fixing exploits because it is only really going to hurt the new players. Especially when we know that somehow another exploit will be found.

took them years to even attempt to stop duping on ark. Duping is already a thing in atlas. And personally if I had to choose between making death less preferable and stopping duping? I would say let death stay extremely preferable until we have found a full proof way to get rid of a true exploit like duping.

i don’t really see them changing multiple mechanics for death when they still even have the pve sinking ship grieving going on. 

Shoyldnt even be a priority yet

[Pirate Hawkins 32]

it is a game

 

you want real life, where death has consequences, then do not play it

[Incarnate 34]

13 minutes ago, UDO said:

hunger , thirst , vitamins  , make it persistant ..u die u respawn with the same hunger , thirst and vitamin lvls u had before u died ,respawn in the same condition  solved .... 

 

as for death having consequences until they fix the animal clipping through walls / ships players they need to stay away from death consequences ,

 

There would be issues with making those values persistent, because if you die due to one value going down, you would keep dying and you might be in situation where you can't do anything to improve the situation, like getting killed by wildlife or environment.

Yeah, thats what I pointed out, that they need to fix those issues before even attempting consequences of death.

But in a nutshell, they should introduce a health system of sorts that deals with the consequences of dying, not eating right, staying alive and eating right. Basically, where there are more lasting benefits of staying alive and there are more lasting detrimental effects of dying, same deal with eating and drinking "correctly", "incorrectly" or lack of eating and drinking.

[Rakwuerm 4]

i'm @ your side, a little penatity if you die would be nice, because i know so many peoples witch die beacause "hey food and an vitamins are bad" - die ....... uncool

witch penatlity is the point to discuss 

i love this idea maybe you are 10% slower or do 10% less dmg or collect 10% less like this 

perma death isn't the best i think maybe for an hardcore server

 

this will be the right way

Edited January 9, 2019 by Rakwuerm

[Incarnate 34]

26 minutes ago, Pirate Hawkins said:

it is a game

 

you want real life, where death has consequences, then do not play it

Yes it's a game, but what you fail to realize it seems, is that they've implemented the hunger, thirst and vitamin deficiency for a reason, and people are avoiding the detrimental effects, and there are no negative effects of dying, so people abuse & exploit how easy it is to die and conveniently respawn nearby without any negative effects. Where negative lasting effects would make people avoid doing that, and would also make death and staying alive more meaningful.

Consider on a PvP server, if this is in effect, certain tactics wouldn't be that efficient any longer, tactics that shouldn't be efficient anyways. It would also mean that if someone were invading but sustaining casualties, they would be less and less efficient and would have to consider to withdraw, where as it is now, they can can just keep on with the assault. Implementing what I'm suggesting would be very meaningful for the game in many ways, not just for hunger, thirst and vitamin deficiency system.
 

Quote

 

i'm @ your side, a little penatity if you die would be nice, because i know so many peoples witch die beacause "hey food and an vitamins are bad" - die ....... uncool

witch penatlity is the point to discuss 

i love this idea maybe you are 10% slower or do 10% less dmg or collect 10% less like this 

perma death isn't the best i think maybe for an hardcore server

 

this will be the right way

 

The thing is, I never in the OP mentioned anything in regards to permadeath, and I don't think that would be a good thing for Atlas with permadeath, not even on a hardcore server.  Being 10% slower or dealing 10% less damage or collect 10% less won't really accomplish anything and will just be a mild nuissance that players will just power through. It has to be something that has an actual impact that will deter players from trying to avoid the detriments of the hunger, thirst and vitamin deficiency, something that will encourage players to try and stay alive, eat and drink as needed to stay alive. The actual values should of course be tweaked, but the negative effects from dying needs to be lasting but recoverable through effort, it should also be possible to get the better end of the stick, which will encourage players to staying alive as it should give more lasting benefits. Some of the benefits could be more maximum hitpoints, better stamina regen, benefits that might even affect combat values, like slightly faster reload, better accuracy, slightly faster animation recovery after melee attacks, etc.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Incarnate

[Pirate Hawkins 32]

what you fail to realize is no one cares if a game is meaningful, they only want entertainment

 

been that way since before UO , will still  be that way long after Atlas is not even a memory 

[UDO 361]

21 minutes ago, Incarnate said:

There would be issues with making those values persistent, because if you die due to one value going down, you would keep dying and you might be in situation where you can't do anything to improve the situation, like getting killed by wildlife or environment.

Yeah, thats what I pointed out, that they need to fix those issues before even attempting consequences of death.

But in a nutshell, they should introduce a health system of sorts that deals with the consequences of dying, not eating right, staying alive and eating right. Basically, where there are more lasting benefits of staying alive and there are more lasting detrimental effects of dying, same deal with eating and drinking "correctly", "incorrectly" or lack of eating and drinking.

easily fixable u get 1-2 % back this would allow u to get back and eat / drink or if u know the consequence of not having these things balanced / enough dont let it get that low , 

 

there has to be consequences so players react to it in plenty of time , u dont just keel over and die suddenly there is plenty of warning for the low water / food / vitamin ...

 

or they just as well take the food / water / vitamins out of the game all together .

Edited January 9, 2019 by UDO

[Incarnate 34]

14 minutes ago, Pirate Hawkins said:

what you fail to realize is no one cares if a game is meaningful, they only want entertainment

 

been that way since before UO , will still  be that way long after Atlas is not even a memory 

I don't think you understand what I meant with meaningful, even if people just want entertainment, yes it's a game, but a game has an intended gameplay which provides the entertainment, so when the negative elements of the intended gameplay is being avoided through abusing and exploiting various mechanics to avoid those negative effects, they're avoiding something thats part of the intended entertainment, which they need to fix. Let me put it this way, the game needs meaningful entertainment, otherwise it's just bland unimportant entertainment that is waste of peoples time. You may not want that, but that doesn't change the fact that the game does need to have consequences of dying and benefits of staying alive.

 

10 minutes ago, UDO said:

easily fixable u get 1-2 % back this would allow u to get back and eat / drink or if u know the consequence of not having these things balanced / enough dont let it get that low , 

 

there has to be consequences so players react to it in plenty of time , u dont just keel over and die suddenly there is plenty of warning for the low water / food / vitamin ...

 

or they just as well take the food / water / vitamins out of the game all together .

Maybe so, but players will just power through that, and it doesn't fix other issues where players are exploiting how easy it is to respawn nearby without any detrimental effects, like for instance on PvP servers where people just keep respawning and attack with the weapon that is the most cost and damage efficient, without any armor or clothing for that matter. This is where losing health upon death and gaining a temporary maximum hitpoint buff from staying alive when being healthy, is going to matter a great deal.

Dying and staying alive should matter, and it should be preferable to stay alive as opposed to just dying and respawning without any detrimental effects.

[Watru 10]

I dose have conscience you lose all your stuff.
No need on punishing it even more, and if you get penalty how is this going to work with all the OP animals.
Or someone greifing someone else for the fun, and the penalty of the victim.

Not a good idea.

[Anubissan 15]

Its suggestions like yours that f.... .. games. Why instead off asking for nerfs/consequences, you do not ask to fixes thoses things that make ppl want to die to recover vitamines? 

 Food spoil to fast, really fast.

 How much days can you have for example onions in your home without spoil?

  We need to eat like 2 or 3 cows a day  just to recover hunger, to balance vitamines you need to eat a lot diferent foods.

 Ask for fixes/tunning some stuff on game, do not ask for f....... nerfs/consequences.

[Incarnate 34]

3 minutes ago, Watru said:

I dose have conscience you lose all your stuff.
No need on punishing it even more, and if you get penalty how is this going to work with all the OP animals.
Or someone greifing someone else for the fun, and the penalty of the victim.

Not a good idea.

For the majority of deaths currently people don't lose anything, only occasionally will someone lose items/equipment because of being unable to retrieve it due to animals.
As much as griefing sucks, griefers also risk taking hits and getting hit by it. In regards to the OP animals, if you had read the part about OP wildlife in the original post, then you'd know I don't want them to implement it until they got the OP wildlife issues and gameplay under control.

[Incarnate 34]

22 minutes ago, Anubissan said:

Its suggestions like yours that f.... .. games. Why instead off asking for nerfs/consequences, you do not ask to fixes thoses things that make ppl want to die to recover vitamines? 

 Food spoil to fast, really fast.

 How much days can you have for example onions in your home without spoil?

  We need to eat like 2 or 3 cows a day  just to recover hunger, to balance vitamines you need to eat a lot diferent foods.

 Ask for fixes/tunning some stuff on game, do not ask for f....... nerfs/consequences.

This is a topic for a different debate but I do think food spoils way to fast. However my suggestion, isn't what fucks games, because you see it as a nerf, I see it as a fix to many things, including people trying to avoid the detrimental effects to starvation, dehydration and vitamins deficiency. How people recover vitamins is through eating the correct food, which I think they should balance better so that you're able to get the vitamins you need no matter what island you spawn on.

People do exploit and abuse the fact that it's easier to die and respawn nearby than suffer the detrimental effects, same goes for just powering them and keep playing as if they weren't there. This is why there needs to be consequences of dying in regards to exploiting the mechanics of dying and respawning nearby without any detrimental effects what so ever. I think death should have more lasting detrimental consequences and likewise should staying alive have more lasting beneficial consequences.

So I am asking for fixes, just not the kind of fixes you have in mind. The fix I'm suggesting will have an effect not just to the people dying to respawn to get rid of the negative effects, but it also deals with other kinds of issues. Like for instance players just building ships and going around and claiming flags, where their deaths don't matter and they just keep respawning with no care for starvation, dehydration or vitamin deficiencies, where it would matter if they died couldn't just die and respawn back at their base because now they were needed there, without any kind of consequences. What I'm suggesting would fix a lot of issues, because people are playing around the detrimental effects because death currently does not matter the slightest, the only time where death currently matters is where you cannot get your items on your dead corpse, or where there are other consequences at play.

You know, if someone griefs you or anyonelse, you and they can write in the global chat, or local chat the name and company of the griefers, where it's very likely that others will hit them, and they will stand lose more than you did, because these people would probably not just strike once, no they'd keep on striking until they were no more. You could also write the character and company down of the griefers and put them on a KoS list (kill on sight list), so in the even they show up again, you're prepared and will act accordingly, even if it's staying on the defensive and avoiding them. I hate griefing and griefers, but still this fix has nothing to do with griefing or griefers, and could them just as well as it could anyone else.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Incarnate
Spelling and adding more context.

[Watru 10]

20 minutes ago, Incarnate said:

For the majority of deaths currently people don't lose anything, only occasionally will someone lose items/equipment because of being unable to retrieve it due to animals.
As much as griefing sucks, griefers also risk taking hits and getting hit by it. In regards to the OP animals, if you had read the part about OP wildlife in the original post, then you'd know I don't want them to implement it until they got the OP wildlife issues and gameplay under control.

I dont want them to implement it at all.
All it will do is have a negative impact on the fun experience and it will definitely kill some off the PvP.
And it will promote even more zerging...

No mate this is a bad, bad idea!

Edited January 9, 2019 by Watru

[Anubissan 15]

Before ask for some consequences, why not ask for fixes and then ask for those death consequence?

 Sure, ppl die on purpose to recover vitamines, i do that too, why? Becouse i dont have a full stable access to all the food i need to recover them. I dont like to die from time to time just to recover that, its annoing after die some times.

  I play pve, and when i find a place to start my "home" i will start to build a stable food suply as i do not like to keep dieing over and over to recover. But they need to change a lot off the food aspect.

 They need to add some kind off food that will last for days. You cant go on see travels with the current system, they do not work.

[Incarnate 34]

6 minutes ago, Watru said:

I dont want them to implement it at all.
All it will do is have a negative impact on the fun experience and it will definitely kill some off the PvP.
And it will promote even more zerging...

No mate this is a bad, bad idea!

I disagree, while you say it will promote zerging, it will also be easier to deal with as the zergers will become easier to deal with the more they die, which in itself would make it less preferable. Furthermore, there should be other things implemented as well that will make the decision to zerg less preferable, where dying much easier would make it less preferable, because the amount of spawns will still be the same, and it could even be tied to health rating, so if your health rating were low you would have less respawns available, to promote staying alive as the most preferable.

Like one of the things I've suggested is that they should make claim flags be something you craft, as well as being something that costs gold to place as well costing gold to keep.
Because this would force anyone who wants to hold land focus on activities that yield gold, like treasure hunting or building and mainting good infrastructure, this would make zerging even less preferable.

So I think it's important to try and see the entire picture and scope of things, as many of them are indirectly tied or affects the other.

[Incarnate 34]

10 minutes ago, Anubissan said:

Before ask for some consequences, why not ask for fixes and then ask for those death consequence?

 Sure, ppl die on purpose to recover vitamines, i do that too, why? Becouse i dont have a full stable access to all the food i need to recover them. I dont like to die from time to time just to recover that, its annoing after die some times.

  I play pve, and when i find a place to start my "home" i will start to build a stable food suply as i do not like to keep dieing over and over to recover. But they need to change a lot off the food aspect.

 They need to add some kind off food that will last for days. You cant go on see travels with the current system, they do not work.

What I'm asking for is a kind of fix for many things, but I agree with you there are several things they need to fix in the department of food, like every type of vitamin should be available on every island you can choose to spawn on, because it's a core part of the survival aspect of the game, where anywhere else you're there because you chose to be there, and thus it shouldn't necessarily be readily available there. But this is where farming would become important, because if you chose to live on an island that did not have all the vitamins, you'd have to be able to at least grow them. But like I said, there are things they need to get in order before applying what I suggested, wildlife was just one of them, and obviously appropriately balacing food and vitamin system, availability and spoil times are another.

[Watru 10]

@IncarnateI think it is safe to say that nobody is a fan of this.
If we read the reply`s anyways and the outrage and backlash if they implemented a penalty for dieing.
Well am just going to grab my popcorn and watch the show.

Lets not make the game less fun and more frustrating.

My guess you want to steam roll small groups with your big company and making sure they have no recourse at all.
Penalty for death in a game is ALWAYS a BAD idea unless its direcly tied to the PvP and the reason behind it.

Not a blanket penalty factory just to make it hard and frustrating.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Watru

[Incarnate 34]

8 minutes ago, Watru said:

@IncarnateI think it is safe to say that nobody is a fan of this.
If we read the reply`s anyways and the outrage and backlash if they implemented a penalty for dieing.
Well am just going to grab my popcorn and watch the show.

Lets not make the game less fun and more frustrating.

My guess you want to steam roll small groups with your big company and making sure they have no recourse at all.
Penalty for death in a game is ALWAYS a BAD idea unless its direcly tied to the PvP and the reason behind it.

Not a blanket penalty factory just to make it hard and frustrating.

Thats kind of amusing you think that just because of a few dislikes it, then suddenly everyone isn't a fan of it, where there are also people in this thread who're actually in support of it, just not now as the game currently is, which I actually agree with and I also did talk about in the initial post, that this isn't something they should implement until they have things like for instance OP wildlife appropriately balanced.

It's kind of funny you think that I'm part of big company and that I want to steamroll small groups, especially since I detest griefers and griefing.
I just happen think that it's complete BS that people can just kill themselves to avoid the detrimental effects of starvation, dehydration, vitamin deficiencies and that through making death actually have more lasting detrimental effects and on the other side of the coin have beneficial effects of avoiding death, being something that would be good for the game. Furthermore, what I'm suggesting would also greatly affect the PvP aspect, as suddenly companies couldn't just keep an invasion ongoing when they've sustained major casualties, and if they have been zerging, they would become a lot more easy to deal with. Oh, and in case you don't know, guess how much bigger companies have been exploiting zerging around to claim land, because death matters absolutely zero in this game currently. Where if it actually had detrimental consequences of dying, and beneficial consequences of staying alive, that would completely change warfare tactics on PvP servers. There is great reasoning behind what I'm suggesting.

I don't think this would make the game less fun and more frustrating, but it would if implemented as is right now, which isn't what I'm suggesting! I'm suggesting this to be introduced when they've gotten various gameplay and balance issue narrowed down and fixed appropriately.

[Watru 10]

24 minutes ago, Incarnate said:

Thats kind of amusing you think that just because of a few dislikes it, then suddenly everyone isn't a fan of it, where there are also people in this thread who're actually in support of it, just not now as the game currently is, which I actually agree with and I also did talk about in the initial post, that this isn't something they should implement until they have things like for instance OP wildlife appropriately balanced.

It's kind of funny you think that I'm part of big company and that I want to steamroll small groups, especially since I detest griefers and griefing.
I just happen think that it's complete BS that people can just kill themselves to avoid the detrimental effects of starvation, dehydration, vitamin deficiencies and that through making death actually have more lasting detrimental effects and on the other side of the coin have beneficial effects of avoiding death, being something that would be good for the game. Furthermore, what I'm suggesting would also greatly affect the PvP aspect, as suddenly companies couldn't just keep an invasion ongoing when they've sustained major casualties, and if they have been zerging, they would become a lot more easy to deal with. Oh, and in case you don't know, guess how much bigger companies have been exploiting zerging around to claim land, because death matters absolutely zero in this game currently. Where if it actually had detrimental consequences of dying, and beneficial consequences of staying alive, that would completely change warfare tactics on PvP servers. There is great reasoning behind what I'm suggesting.

I don't think this would make the game less fun and more frustrating, but it would if implemented as is right now, which isn't what I'm suggesting! I'm suggesting this to be introduced when they've gotten various gameplay and balance issue narrowed down and fixed appropriately.

We dont need more of that stuff when you charater gets old and dies.
And if you dont have a hire then you are screwed and wont want to die.

then death will matter.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Watru

[Incarnate 34]

1 minute ago, Watru said:

We dont need more of that stuff when you charater gets old and dies.
And if you dont have a hire then you are screwed and wont want to die.

What I'm suggesting has nothing to do with dying from old age, and if a character would die from old age, that would be the equivelent of a permanent death.
Currently I don't think the game is in a place where they should even remotely consider implementing the effects of old age nor how to continue ones character if that character were to die of old age. I don't think the game is ready for that, but I do think that the devs should be fully transparent with what they have in mind and discuss it with the community/playerbase, so that they can guage before implementing if that is the correct step to take, especially so they can learn potential issues with that part of their design path.

[Watru 10]

1 minute ago, Incarnate said:

What I'm suggesting has nothing to do with dying from old age, and if a character would die from old age, that would be the equivelent of a permanent death.
Currently I don't think the game is in a place where they should even remotely consider implementing the effects of old age nor how to continue ones character if that character were to die of old age. I don't think the game is ready for that, but I do think that the devs should be fully transparent with what they have in mind and discuss it with the community/playerbase, so that they can guage before implementing if that is the correct step to take, especially so they can learn potential issues with that part of their design path.

Not hard to understand they ripped it of CoE.
Character gets old, get a kid before you die transfer char.
Or lose you leves and stats.

You cant die all the time because you dont have a infinite amount og kids.
Solved.
 

[Grongash 201]

In a game where you die left and right due to crappy mechanics, completely overtuned wildlife, bugs (stuck in bed, stuck in walls, falling off the ship mid travel due to clipping errors, spontanous ship explosions, etc), tons of hacks and grievers death should NOT have any consequences.

 

[Incarnate 34]

23 minutes ago, Grongash said:

In a game where you die left and right due to crappy mechanics, completely overtuned wildlife, bugs (stuck in bed, stuck in walls, falling off the ship mid travel due to clipping errors, spontanous ship explosions, etc), tons of hacks and grievers death should NOT have any consequences.

 

I can see you haven't read all of the initial post, specifically because I've said in it that they need to fix various issues, including OP wildlife before implementing my suggestion. They should not implement my suggestion UNTIL they have fixes most of the current imbalanced issues with the game.

[Grongash 201]

7 minutes ago, Incarnate said:

I can see you haven't read all of the initial post, specifically because I've said in it that they need to fix various issues, including OP wildlife before implementing my suggestion. They should not implement my suggestion UNTIL they have fixes most of the current imbalanced issues with the game.

I can see you havent read all of mine. Its not just imbalance, its mostly bugs atm.

[Nightstrasza 137]

Nah, with all predators, alphas, glitches and broken patches would prefer it never changes, even after all is fixed would prefer there will be profits for living long and not making us more useless for dying.