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Psykonalle

More flags - Decreased contesting timer

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Posted (edited)

EDIT:

Update v.10.42:

- The time required to steal an enemy claim now decreases the more Claims that enemy team has.

Thank you for the comments, ideas and support on this topic! If anyone has any intel on how steep the decrease rate is, please let us know! Other than that I'm glad this got pushed through and hope to see better in-game balance! 🙂

 

As I've understood, the contesting timer for flag claims decreases as the total amount of flags increases. Is this accurate, and is there a table showing the rate of the decrease?

My main concern is if the timer decrease is steep enough?

If you only have one claim, the contesting timer will be 3 days. Do we know what the timer is if you have 10 claims? Without knowing what the decreasing rate is, I'd expect something like this:

1 flag: 3 days
2 flags: 2 days
3 flags: 1 day
4 flags: 12 hours
5 flags: 5 hours
...
10 flags: 9 minutes

This would encourage people not to have more claims than they can manage. It would allow bigger tribes to own larger pieces of lands, as well as the  9-5 worker to safely play on PvE with 1-2 claims. That being said, if you have people online around the clock, your territory should be safe. At the same time territory griefing would be eliminated, as you wouldn't want to risk your stuff being taken over in just a few minutes. Also, people wouldn't be directly denied owning more territory.

Comments? Ideas? Flaws?

Edited by Psykonalle
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8 minutes ago, Psykonalle said:

As I've understood, the contesting timer for flag claims decreases as the total amount of flags increases. Is this accurate, and is there a table showing the rate of the decrease?

My main concern is if the timer decrease is steep enough?

If you only have one claim, the contesting timer will be 3 days. Do we know what the timer is if you have 10 claims? Without knowing what the decreasing rate is, I'd expect something like this:

1 flag: 3 days
2 flags: 2 days
3 flags: 1 day
4 flags: 12 hours
5 flags: 5 hours
...
10 flags: 9 minutes

This would encourage people not to have more claims than they can manage. It would allow bigger tribes to own larger pieces of lands, as well as the  9-5 worker to safely play on PvE with 1-2 claims. That being said, if you have people online around the clock, your territory should be safe. At the same time territory griefing would be eliminated, as you wouldn't want to risk your stuff being taken over in just a few minutes. Also, people wouldn't be directly denied owning more territory.

Comments? Ideas? Flaws?

doubt it wil be that harsh now they have added the ability to set flags for others to build on will be a lot more than 3 before u start seeing any significant decrease in claim protection

 

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1 minute ago, UDO said:

doubt it wil be that harsh now they have added the ability to set flags for others to build on will be a lot more than 3 before u start seeing any significant decrease in claim protection

 

I feared that... The timer should be adjusted. 

The problem with building on someone else's ground is that they can, as far as I'm concerned, at any point take away your rights to build/use the territory. This means you're directly depending on the land owner, which in my opinion is not healthy for PvE servers.

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I think it'll be pretty severe. They want people fighting over land. The tax system isn't going to help big companies hold onto land and nobody is going to thank them for taxing them.

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The way the update reads sounds like you only have from Monday to Wednesday to decide, doesnt sound like you can adjust it after it is built on

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31 minutes ago, Darius Night said:

The way the update reads sounds like you only have from Monday to Wednesday to decide, doesnt sound like you can adjust it after it is built on

no, the way it reads is, on monday it goes live, you have until wednesday to fix yoru currently flags the way you want them, on wednesday it becomes ACTIVE  forpeople to build on, and at any point after wednesday you can change them to your liking. they are just giving 2 days to set it up the first time

 

9 hours ago, Psykonalle said:

As I've understood, the contesting timer for flag claims decreases as the total amount of flags increases. Is this accurate, and is there a table showing the rate of the decrease?

My main concern is if the timer decrease is steep enough?

If you only have one claim, the contesting timer will be 3 days. Do we know what the timer is if you have 10 claims? Without knowing what the decreasing rate is, I'd expect something like this:

1 flag: 3 days
2 flags: 2 days
3 flags: 1 day
4 flags: 12 hours
5 flags: 5 hours
...
10 flags: 9 minutes

This would encourage people not to have more claims than they can manage. It would allow bigger tribes to own larger pieces of lands, as well as the  9-5 worker to safely play on PvE with 1-2 claims. That being said, if you have people online around the clock, your territory should be safe. At the same time territory griefing would be eliminated, as you wouldn't want to risk your stuff being taken over in just a few minutes. Also, people wouldn't be directly denied owning more territory.

Comments? Ideas? Flaws?

op, where did you see this about the flags, because as it stands on an official scale, all flags are suppose dto have a 3 day timer if you are active in the area.

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3 minutes ago, mizunami said:

op, where did you see this about the flags, because as it stands on an official scale, all flags are suppose dto have a 3 day timer if you are active in the area.

- Fixed some bugs related to Sea Claims, Enemy Claim Flags can now be directly pinged to identify any contesting enemies nearby, and the time required to steal an enemy claim now decreases the more Claims that enemy team has.

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1 minute ago, moriak said:

- Fixed some bugs related to Sea Claims, Enemy Claim Flags can now be directly pinged to identify any contesting enemies nearby, and the time required to steal an enemy claim now decreases the more Claims that enemy team has.

read that more closely. "time required to steal" ...3 day timer isn't going to change..the 30 minuete timer to steal a claim is gonna change...to steal and contestation are 2 different timers

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2 minutes ago, mizunami said:

read that more closely. "time required to steal" ...3 day timer isn't going to change..the 30 minuete timer to steal a claim is gonna change...to steal and contestation are 2 different timers

You're probably right but in EA you never know 😄

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i mean as is ...flag timers are still broken ...mine aren't resetign and im in the area lol

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12 minutes ago, mizunami said:

op, where did you see this about the flags, because as it stands on an official scale, all flags are suppose dto have a 3 day timer if you are active in the area.

Just different people. That's why I was asking.

50 minutes ago, Paradigm said:

I think it'll be pretty severe. They want people fighting over land. The tax system isn't going to help big companies hold onto land and nobody is going to thank them for taxing them.

It's PvE... how can you fight over the land if you can't fight? Lol

It's a matter of who reaches the island first. I started on PvP and switched over to PvE only to find a ton of unbalanced issues here.

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15 minutes ago, Psykonalle said:

It's PvE... how can you fight over the land if you can't fight? Lol

Take their claim flag...

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Posted (edited)

if that Calm down Claim abuse player .. for me it's not a bad Think but i still préfer a claim Limitation .. i dont will Cry if a player with more than 3

 claim Cry because people have Stealing one of them, no i will laugh .. 

Edited by ReilanT

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On 1/6/2019 at 3:39 AM, ReilanT said:

if that Calm down Claim abuse player .. for me it's not a bad Think but i still préfer a claim Limitation .. i dont will Cry if a player with more than 3

 claim Cry because people have Stealing one of them, no i will laugh .. 

Not sure if I understood that correctly, but you think there should be a limit of claim flags. Per person or company?

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On 1/4/2019 at 12:01 PM, Psykonalle said:

As I've understood, the contesting timer for flag claims decreases as the total amount of flags increases. Is this accurate, and is there a table showing the rate of the decrease?

My main concern is if the timer decrease is steep enough?

If you only have one claim, the contesting timer will be 3 days. Do we know what the timer is if you have 10 claims? Without knowing what the decreasing rate is, I'd expect something like this:

1 flag: 3 days
2 flags: 2 days
3 flags: 1 day
4 flags: 12 hours
5 flags: 5 hours
...
10 flags: 9 minutes

This would encourage people not to have more claims than they can manage. It would allow bigger tribes to own larger pieces of lands, as well as the  9-5 worker to safely play on PvE with 1-2 claims. That being said, if you have people online around the clock, your territory should be safe. At the same time territory griefing would be eliminated, as you wouldn't want to risk your stuff being taken over in just a few minutes. Also, people wouldn't be directly denied owning more territory.

Comments? Ideas? Flaws?

This idea in any case is way too step. Depending on terrain you may need 3 claims to even be able to put shipyard and build base secure enough to have animals. 
You will kill big companies (lack of space for them), small companies (lack of people to protect few claims) and solo players at the same time. Only few hundred people with around the clock online guilds (with good organization) could survive and thrive. Everyone else would be evicted in no time and with current overlapping off the claims it would be nightmare for everyone -  no way to make a buffer around your base.... 
Every one else would be locked to one or two claims. 
I would agree to go with logarithmic system, but with downside of <24h from 10+ claims, not from 3 flags.... 

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1 hour ago, Elrood said:

This idea in any case is way too step. Depending on terrain you may need 3 claims to even be able to put shipyard and build base secure enough to have animals. 
You will kill big companies (lack of space for them), small companies (lack of people to protect few claims) and solo players at the same time. Only few hundred people with around the clock online guilds (with good organization) could survive and thrive. Everyone else would be evicted in no time and with current overlapping off the claims it would be nightmare for everyone -  no way to make a buffer around your base.... 
Every one else would be locked to one or two claims. 
I would agree to go with logarithmic system, but with downside of <24h from 10+ claims, not from 3 flags.... 

3 claims is pretty safe to have, especially if you're more than one. I don't see any reason why any tribe would need upkeep on an area more than 10 claims on a PvE server. Keep in mind: this is just about PvE, not PvP.

Do you know how big one claim really is? 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Psykonalle said:

3 claims is pretty safe to have, especially if you're more than one. I don't see any reason why any tribe would need upkeep on an area more than 10 claims on a PvE server. Keep in mind: this is just about PvE, not PvP.

Do you know how big one claim really is? 

I have right now 2 sea claims and 3 standard claims. 2 standard claims are inside one of sea claim. So I have terrain from 2 sea claims and one standard claim. I would say I know how big the claim is. 

Now with 3 standard claims and existng neighbour I probably could find a place where I could put sea claim in your neighbour (inactive or griefed) territory where this sea claim could overlap your base or shipyard or whatever. This means we have a problem with current system already.

Now, lets say this fixed. I still have many claims - 5 so according to your rules I would need to reduce and optimize. I actually need this 3 flags to be able to live without problems with space and putting buildings without removing semi rare resources form our island... So I would have 1 day of protection. And my company have like 3 people. And because we are friends in RL and we have similar schedule in RL, assuming that everyday one of us can login is actually bordering certainty that there will be gaps. Even if for most of the year we will be active every day for at least few hours. 

There are two more people with the same problem as me on my island alone and i'm aware about few other small companies holding 3-5 claims which imho they need to be able to play without restricting content for themselves. 

Edited by Elrood

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3 minutes ago, Elrood said:

I have right now 2 sea claims and 3 standard claims. 2 standard claims are inside one of sea claim. So I have terrain from 2 sea claims and one standard claim. I would say I know how big the claim is. 

Now with 3 standard claims and existng neighbour I probably could find a place where I could put sea claim in your neighbour (inactive or griefed) territory where this sea claim could overlap your base or shipyard or whatever. This means we have a problem with current system already.

Now, lets say this fixed. I still have many claims - 5 so according to your rules I would need to reduce and optimize. I actually need this 3 flags to be able to live without problems with space and putting buildings without removing semi rare resources form our island... So I would have 1 day of protection. And my company have like 3 people. And because we are friends in RL and we have similar schedule in RL, assuming that everyday one of us can login is actually bordering certainty that there will be gaps. Even if for most of the year we will be active every day for at least few hours. 

There are two more people with the same problem as me on my island alone and i'm aware about few other small companies holding 3-5 claims which imho they need to be able to play without restricting content for themselves. 

So my next question would be: Why do you have 2 sea claims?

It's not like people will attack you from the sea, because this is PvE.

 

Let me explain you to the core problem here:

People are joining the server every day. All territory is taken, and no one is able to build anywhere anymore. There are huge areas along the coast that are claimed, but not used. This is what normal people refer to as greed.

There are several ways to deal with this problem. One is presented in this topic. It's a way to encourage people to own less land, which will lead to more room and possibilities for others. Another way to deal with the problem is to remove the claiming system completely, which most likely would lead to people pillaring areas instead. In this case there would need to strict rules resulting in bans for doing this.

 

My numbers are rough. The point here is not to present exact timers for respective amount of flags. The point here is to present a regressive system to encourage people to own less land. To do so there must be some kind of benefit/reward for this, which here is the contesting timer. 

I personally don't see how one couldn't fit a PvE base, including animal pen, farming plots and a shipyard on 2 claim spots. Maybe you should optimize your placements better?

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Posted (edited)

You can't fight over land on pve in a meaningful in-game way.  The best you can do is steal land from some poor guy who had to go on a business trip or take a family vacation, or lost power in a snowstorm for a week.  

What's the only real reason to make flags contest-able on pve?  To free up abandoned claims so someone else can have them.

3 days is not enough time to say the land has been abandoned.   There are many reasons people might not be in the game at all for 3 days.  There are also a lot of reasons people might be in the game, but away from their claim for 3 days.

This complicated business of timers on flags having different countdowns depending on claim size is weird and unnecessary.  They are trying to fix the problem of there being no land left to claim and people grabbing huge amounts of land with a weird complicated solution when all they have to do is limit the claim size per player/company.  And there's not one good reason not to limit them on pve when there's no game mechanic of fighting over them.

There IS a game mechanic they could use to make competition between claims/companies on pve...but so far, that's not in the game.    If every claim required taxes, a company would have to stay successful at something to pay for the claim.  The more successful companies would get bigger claims.   If your neighbor is lazy or unlucky and can't keep up with the tax, you can take over his land.  (The whole thing would work better if companies could ally to form towns and cities, but even the basics would help fix the problem.

Edited by Winter Thorne

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Posted (edited)

In PvE get rid of the flags altogether and have the ARK model where your unable to build within X mount of blocks, as mentioned above its a mechanic that's not really effective in PvE as no combat to enforce, or when you raid a claim your completely reliant on players being unable to login for 3 days, god help you if you need to go away on holiday or hospital.

Flags seem to be a "good idea" as with many things within the Atlas world it makes no real sense but has been added to make it less Ark like and its there for the sake of it, PvE by its nature is a different beast and watching some of the streams where they are actively taking claims and raids are lasting over 24 hours because of a few protectors jumping from bed to bed as the flags seem to chain link so move to one protect them all in that chain its not working very well for PvP either 😛

 

At the end of the day Ark has a lot of good mechanics now after many years of tweaking but the baby seems to have been thrown out with the bath water to make Atlas "different" 😛

Edited by Nomolos
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