Dev's when is retaliation appropriate against Griefing?

[SusanT 65]

7 hours ago, krazmuze said:

wargaming has used hex maps for territory control for years for reasons that it works.   Just make them small enough hex grid so the shoreline can be followed, but not so small that blocking fences can be built.

 

Ok I looked up hex maps as I am not familiar with them at all, from what I could grasp from the explanation it gave as a general hex map is that cells can be crossed, is there a way you can explain it more simplistic and how it could work in Atlas please? I just didn't get how it could work going by what Wiki said.

Thanks

[SusanT 65]

7 hours ago, gadefence said:

Considering they want to encourage trading they should do what pirate: caribbean hunt did. Instanced islands you own, everything else it lawless. The islands you own are basically shelled out rocks with few resources forcing trading and more piracy.

This is something I have not heard of before and could certainly keep a game going for the supply and demands of mats.

[krazmuze 120]

1 hour ago, SusanT said:

Ok I looked up hex maps as I am not familiar with them at all, from what I could grasp from the explanation it gave as a general hex map is that cells can be crossed, is there a way you can explain it more simplistic and how it could work in Atlas please? I just didn't get how it could work going by what Wiki said.

Thanks

Instead of bigger islands costing more gold, you make each hex cost the same gold.  You buy enough shore and bay for your base, nobody can build on it but the owner.  You want to own the entire island, buy all the hexes.  Instead of using squares that can turn only 90 degrees borders, hexes have 60 degree borders.   That is what makes them easier to follow shorelines.    The original flag system you bought circles and it was a disaster because of overlapped circles bug griefing.  With hexes there is no overlap.   You do not want neighbors and their griefing structures buy enough hexes to keep them away.     You will never see it in the game because metas want to own the entire map square, they do not want you sharing an island.

With expanding circles if you wanted the eastern island you would have to claim all the islands as they will be caught in your radius.  With resizable rectangles you would have to buy that tiny middle island.   With same size hexes you could buy only the eastern island and leave the others up for grabs.

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by krazmuze

[Ranger1k 183]

Interesting.. Hexes would have to follow the shoreline...

Interior island zero hexes due to them being landlocked.. Solution is 8-24 hour decay timer to allow map building and quick trapping... Inland routes provided in all 4 Cardinal directions

Also, depending on the builds along shoreline interior routes may be further available...

This would be a VERY nice solution... I have a better one im keeping to myself.. But this is a perfect example of an elegant yet simple solution to problem occurring for 1+ years now...

Good work

Edited July 19, 2020 by Ranger1k

[krazmuze 120]

2 hours ago, SusanT said:

This is something I have not heard of before and could certainly keep a game going for the supply and demands of mats.

That is what freeports should have been from the beginning, because 40k people rushing into the new season overwhelmed free ports.   The reasons for not having instances was PVP - but freeports was non buildable PVE.   Each freeport grid could have instead been a stack of instances that are just spun up servers based on capacity.   Leave freeport grid you cross into the larger map, go to freeport you cross into your own version of it.  It is just a server connection, it does not have to be one to one, it could be one to many.  Freeports are unique that they only have basic resources, you cannot get highend blueprint resources.  So you have to leave if you want to advance in the game, but it is a safe PVE retreat to repair heal and logoff.

his will never happen in a free for all PVP game because it allows people to hide outside the open game world.     In single player freeport is buildable and they make great home bases with the vendors being there.   If the game ever goes towards PVPVE they could do this but then all the pure PVP will quit as well as the pure PVE.  

 (OK population never got there but it was a design goal so the game should have been designed for it)

Edited July 19, 2020 by krazmuze

[krazmuze 120]

20 minutes ago, Ranger1k said:

 

But this is a perfect example of an elegant yet simple solution to problem occurring for 1+ years now...

This could have also been done with the circle flags from the beginning just make them all the same size and hex pack them by constraining the flag to be at 60 degree angle and bordering the other flagged circle.  Then there would be small DMZ gaps between the circles unclaimed.  actual hexes are better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_packing#/media/File:Circle_packing_(hexagonal).svg

But it was so simple that it must just be too complex for these programmers....

Edited July 19, 2020 by krazmuze

[Ranger1k 183]

The NPC side of things, including Freeports, is ridiculously under leveraged.

[krazmuze 120]

I mean it is not like the starter island instance is not a new invention - it is pretty bog standard MMO design!

[Ranger1k 183]

It would need to be implemented and sized island by island. I agree with 90% of your proposal.

[krazmuze 120]

It eliminates a lot of griefing by design, not doing it means they want to have the griefing as that IS the content in this game. 

[Ranger1k 183]

2 minutes ago, krazmuze said:

I mean it is not like the starter island instance is not a new invention - it is pretty bog standard MMO design!

I ill say it again i agree w SUBSTANTIAL portions of your proposal. Scroll up. Im just addressing some specific-nuanced points.

 

Also 11x11 equals 121. 121 grids w an average of 5 islands per yeids an individual landowning base  between 0 and 6050 if we assume 10 slots per an island average.. But... It gets more complicated. Can each "grid" house a company? If so the numbers spike exponentially... Cap at 1 per grid? 5, 10...100?...

 

On the back end its not processable without adding grid rules is my point. sorry

 

Your close, this idea has merit but its not the revolutionary, industry changing lucrative idea I'm proposing

 

GL

[SusanT 65]

54 minutes ago, krazmuze said:

Instead of bigger islands costing more gold, you make each hex cost the same gold.  You buy enough shore and bay for your base, nobody can build on it but the owner.  You want to own the entire island, buy all the hexes.  Instead of using squares that can turn only 90 degrees borders, hexes have 60 degree borders.   That is what makes them easier to follow shorelines.    The original flag system you bought circles and it was a disaster because of overlapped circles bug griefing.  With hexes there is no overlap.   You do not want neighbors and their griefing structures buy enough hexes to keep them away.     You will never see it in the game because metas want to own the entire map square, they do not want you sharing an island.

With expanding circles if you wanted the eastern island you would have to claim all the islands as they will be caught in your radius.  With resizable rectangles you would have to buy that tiny middle island.   With same size hexes you could buy only the eastern island and leave the others up for grabs.

 

Sounds good with one exception that I can see and that is the mega company's that take on any Tom,Dick or Harry  those are the ones that would own the most and,leave the solo'ist in the ....well, nowhere.

[SusanT 65]

23 minutes ago, krazmuze said:

It eliminates a lot of griefing by design, not doing it means they want to have the griefing as that IS the content in this game. 

I don't think the devs want it,I think they can do without pain in the a$$es being jerks and all of the tickets one could just go bury themselves over, maybe in pvp it would have it's reason as there you can be whatever you want to be without any scruples at all, pve is totally different and like the devs, you are leaving out part of our players  with them it is pve players with you, it is solo players.

[SusanT 65]

10 hours ago, krazmuze said:

That is what freeports should have been from the beginning, because 40k people rushing into the new season overwhelmed free ports.   The reasons for not having instances was PVP - but freeports was non buildable PVE.   Each freeport grid could have instead been a stack of instances that are just spun up servers based on capacity.   Leave freeport grid you cross into the larger map, go to freeport you cross into your own version of it.  It is just a server connection, it does not have to be one to one, it could be one to many.  Freeports are unique that they only have basic resources, you cannot get highend blueprint resources.  So you have to leave if you want to advance in the game, but it is a safe PVE retreat to repair heal and logoff.

his will never happen in a free for all PVP game because it allows people to hide outside the open game world.     In single player freeport is buildable and they make great home bases with the vendors being there.   If the game ever goes towards PVPVE they could do this but then all the pure PVP will quit as well as the pure PVE.  

 (OK population never got there but it was a design goal so the game should have been designed for it)

Sounds interesting but I don't think it will happen. I think they would lose pve players way more so than pvp players, pvp players do not care where they are as long as they can destroy and kill period.

You can't really log off safely in freeports, your ship will decay and it will go poof in a matter of a short time so stop overs yeah but no no on the log off, can you imagine how cluttered it would be if people were allowed to log off there? You would never be able  to get TO the vendors, I am glad they made it quick decay, that gives people a line they can't cross and us humans need that in life and, in game because we are not smart enough yet to know when not to cross lines we shouldn't.

I think maybe Atlas was trying with a pvp/pve situation like Memories of Mars has, that is pvp/pve, there is a certain zone that if one wants those special materials you must go to the pvp zone or, pay high prices for them so in the whole of that situation, it IS pvp although it says pvp/pve as you WILL be forced to join a large group and a lot of folks just don't want to, when one joins large groups one loses the actual base of the game, Tom, Dick and Harry will gather all resources so that leaves John to stand around and.....get bored. Don't get your moneys worth that way IMO only.

 

 

[gadefence 148]

15 hours ago, SusanT said:

I agree totally, you give them concise and precise information and pics if they can be supplied as that will be the kicker.Glad you were helped

It hasn't completely solved the grief but it's prevented me from getting exploit griefed, which is a huge step up.

I built a few foundations around where I was going to put farmhouses. Owner of the island went utterly nuts. Spammed gates over 95% of the island, including the ocean, to get us all off their land and built gates/pillars up into my boats demanding I destroy all my stuff if I wanted my boats back.

Needless to say, gating their island is their right as an owner (a shitty right but hey), but grief exploiting pillars into boats and black mailing is pretty far in the no no category.

I think I'm triggering them as I just built up from my two shipyards instead.

[krazmuze 120]

3 hours ago, SusanT said:

You can't really log off safely in freeports, your ship will decay and it will go poof in a matter of a short time so stop overs yeah but no no on the log off, can you imagine how cluttered it would be if people were allowed to log off there? You would never be able  to get TO the vendors, I am glad they made it quick decay, that gives people a line they can't cross and us humans need that in life and, in game because we are not smart enough yet to know when not to cross lines we shouldn't.

It would not be cluttered if freeport was an instance.  Quick decay and lvl caps are only there because it is not an instance, it is an attempt to force people to leave.  If it was an instance then it would be like single player, no level caps and no fast decay.  Making freeport the home base of everyone completely eliminates home base raiding (which is why offline PVP metas will never support this), and makes the game about piracy, people attacking trade on high seas.   People would have to leave freeports because you cannot get to endgame in freeports, even with level gating and decay removed it is still resource/tame gated. 

Edited July 19, 2020 by krazmuze

[krazmuze 120]

1 hour ago, gadefence said:

I built a few foundations around where I was going to put farmhouses. Owner of the island went utterly nuts. Spammed gates over 95% of the island, including the ocean, to get us all off their land and built gates/pillars up into my boats demanding I destroy all my stuff if I wanted my boats back.

This is exactly what hex claims will solve...

From the islands owners point of view you are the griefing foundation spammer and they just fought back in kind.  With hex claims you could have purchased your future expansion area, and the so called island owner could do nothing about it because your shipyards would also be hex claimed.   If they wanted to own the island they would have had to purchase all the hexes (this of course does not solve the corporation meta owning everything - that just need proper limits). 

With previous flag claim system when limits and overlapping bugs was enforced with bans it made for a very fun private server.  The only problem was they was circles rather than hexes so there was always claiming too much using sea claims or too little with land claims with lots of gaps.   Hexes would have fixed it an avoided this entire island 'owner' mess.   But it is not going to change because that is the PVP meta for creating content - pillar wars.

Edited July 19, 2020 by krazmuze

[gadefence 148]

28 minutes ago, krazmuze said:

This is exactly what hex claims will solve...

From the islands owners point of view you are the griefing foundation spammer and they just fought back in kind.  With hex claims you could have purchased your future expansion area, and the so called island owner could do nothing about it because your shipyards would also be hex claimed.   If they wanted to own the island they would have had to purchase all the hexes (this of course does not solve the corporation meta owning everything - that just need proper limits). 

With previous flag claim system when limits and overlapping bugs was enforced with bans it made for a very fun private server.  The only problem was they was circles rather than hexes so there was always claiming too much using sea claims or too little with land claims with lots of gaps.   Hexes would have fixed it an avoided this entire island 'owner' mess.   But it is not going to change because that is the PVP meta for creating content - pillar wars.

I fully agree that the island owner saw my taking <10% of the island (small-ish island) as foundation spamming and responded by bricking it for over 95% and grief exploiting.

Not saying we don't need a better claim system.

I was responding to the person saying I hope the dev helped. They removed the grief exploiting so yes, it did.

[eeeceee 116]

OP is in lawless? Claims?
Wow this thread looks like such a mess.
It is never appropriate to grief (back), griefing is sad.