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apothecary

A solution to killing breeders, maybe?

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First I am by no means a "super-qualified" player. I only have 700ish hours and none of that is in a mega-tribe with serious PVP experience. My perspective comes from someone with hundreds of hours of building and dreading the "loss" of PVP (which surprisingly is a significant part of the "fun" of PVP).

 

Not sure what is being worked on or if ideas are still being incorporated into the design, but I had one.

After reading a lot about why people leave PVP when wiped I am of the conclusion the most significant thing is killing tames. Aside from holes in walls most bases remain in-tact (I have walked the ruins of large raids on official). Sure you lose mats / BP's but mats are easy to replace. They have a linear cost. BP's can be decentralized super easy due to weighing almost nothing. 20 underwater book cases can hide 4800 important BP's.

Breeding Tames, however, are logarithmic investment. A single wild animal can represent thousands of man hours of work. Some of that work is priceless because it involves RNG mining and can never be replaced. Unlike stealing resources and BP's there is absolutely no value in killing someone's breeding tame other than taking joy in their personal agony.

So what about this:

When you tame or breed a creature, it is inert. It cannot harvest materials, cause damage or be damaged or hold inventory. I would even remove the collision box from it so it can't be used to affect other players in any way. It provides no value at all to the owner except one: It can still mate.

To make your creature affect the world it must be spayed/neutered. In doing so it also means others can kill it. So if you want that newly tamed bear to harvest fiber, spay it. If you want to breed it then you can't do anything else with it.

This would actually make spay/neuter a valuable tool rather than an "FU" when selling your animals to others.

There might be exploits I am not considering but I thought I would toss the idea out there.

 

Moved to PVP topic. Spelling.

Edited by apothecary
miss-topic note.

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I cheer for this good idea sir.
Så many people quitted ocer loosing tames. i never really understud why people wipe all passive tames, its like they are asking them not to rebuild and just rage quit, Todays kids are fucking retarted when it comes to thinking outside the box and in the future.

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Tames are raided and killed becuase they can hold stuff in thier inventory, and often are not on passive. 

You've taken your personal favorite aspect of the game and asked for it to be privileged in protections. Dont get me wrong, I've done the exact same with ships. I still maintain that my idea with the ships is good and beneficial to the health of the game.

However it's not in the spirit of the design. What makes the tames valuable is the fact that you can loose them. That they are one single aspect of this game that if overly prioritized will be lost. Thats why it favors big companies so heavily. I'd addition to tames you need to build a good base, man it with NPCs, and then continuously maintain all that while still breeding.

Also, just put them in freeports like everyone else overly worried about it does.

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On 4/25/2020 at 11:03 AM, Chucksteak said:

 

You've taken your personal favorite aspect of the game and asked for it to be privileged in protections. Dont get me wrong, I've done the exact same with ships. I still maintain that my idea with the ships is good and beneficial to the health of the game.

 

That isn't exactly true. I don't think I said anywhere in my post that it was my favorite part of the game. I wasn't trying to jockey an idea for my personal tames because I don't fear for them. If I lose mine I lose them.

My idea was based on observations of medium companies quitting completely over all their tames being wiped and the fact that every Mega at some point parks every single important tame in FP. The game gives a clumsy mechanism (by accidental design) to give them 100% protection, I was just offering another alternative that doesn't have everyone parking tames in FP.

My personal dog in this hunt is for the game to remain viable and have less people quit the game. The investment for breeding  high quality Tames is nowhere near the investment in making a ship - even a mythical. One time investment is linear and one is basically logarithmic.

However to argue against my own point - there is value in HQ tames and removing that value from an opposing company should be allowed. But if that is "by design" then make it so tames un-claim within 1 hour of being left in FP. That would bring us back to everyone's tames are always at risk.

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why do you say it's a logarithmic time investment and not an exponential one?

 

also they can't implement any of these.. you need to be able to kill tames.

 

they already have that weird baby invulnerability mechanic thing

Edited by SeroJ

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On 4/30/2020 at 2:07 PM, apothecary said:

That isn't exactly true. I don't think I said anywhere in my post that it was my favorite part of the game. I wasn't trying to jockey an idea for my personal tames because I don't fear for them. If I lose mine I lose them.

My idea was based on observations of medium companies quitting completely over all their tames being wiped and the fact that every Mega at some point parks every single important tame in FP. The game gives a clumsy mechanism (by accidental design) to give them 100% protection, I was just offering another alternative that doesn't have everyone parking tames in FP.

My personal dog in this hunt is for the game to remain viable and have less people quit the game. The investment for breeding  high quality Tames is nowhere near the investment in making a ship - even a mythical. One time investment is linear and one is basically logarithmic.

However to argue against my own point - there is value in HQ tames and removing that value from an opposing company should be allowed. But if that is "by design" then make it so tames un-claim within 1 hour of being left in FP. That would bring us back to everyone's tames are always at risk.

Tames are my least favorite part of the game. I find them a complete distraction from the concept and implemented in the heaviest and worst way imaginable. Without a tame, you cannot expect to compete against someone with a tame. Making it a necessity to play "Tiger King" when you signed up to be a pirate. I would like to make tames far more trivial. I should be able to farm with skills at the same rate as a tame can farm. That's just me though, and I realize a lot of people love to be the Tiger King.

Side note, the difference between my fresh tame and your purebred tame you spent countless hours working on is insignificant compared to the vast gap between my fresh tame and the dude with no tame. Food for thought if you keep losing tames, don't breed them and waste your time. Better off doing shipwrecks and buying them, or staying with fresh tames.

I am sure loss of tames causes people to quit. However the loss of a tame does not immediately cut off a vast majority of the game. When you log on and the ship is gone, where you are is where you are (beds aside ofc you can go be stranded on a different island). What your doing is probably working on another ship, witch is not captivating, rewarding, or enjoyable to do for the 1000th time. You are doing no shipwrecks, no SoTD, no whaling, no treasure hunting, no raiding islands, no ship combat, not golden age ruins, no kracken. You can farm, build a base, or build a ship. Even a simple brig is going to take you longer to put together than taming a new bear, elephant and giraffe.

As for FPs. Yeah, by all means, tames should not be allowed to be kept there. At least not off the boat. Absolutely let them declaim in a few hours.

My suggestion to those who haven't herd it before;

All ships gain invulnerably to receive or deal dmg when green anchored. Exactly as it works in peace time on a claimed island, 15 min I think till it turns green. This works on all islands EXCEPT claimed islands in war time. To supplement this rule, the max ship limit should be reduced to 1-3 per person instead of the flat 300.

That's it, no new systems added, just toggle a few values. Smallest patch ever to make the game sustainable when it launches. You could even save some tames in a galley and it wouldn't feel like the cheese it is now to keep a tame or boat in a FP. 

Pros

- Whats on your ship is safe, you won't lose everything in a raid.

- Your ship is safe, you can actually play the game. AND get to go to work AND sleep!

- Your ship CAN BE your base.

Cons

- You cant put very much on a ship.

- You can only make so many ships.

- Ship still sinks to decay.

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Just store all your tames, bps, and craftables on Freeport/PVE.  Problem solved.  don't bother building bases, not necessary.

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On 5/4/2020 at 3:58 PM, Chucksteak said:

Tames are my least favorite part of the game. I find them a complete distraction from the concept and implemented in the heaviest and worst way imaginable.

Much like the way base raiding and defending ruins the game...along with offline raiding.  I lost several ships to harbor runs, the last time I played.  Every single time, I wasn't online when it happened.  I just logged in and found wrecks in the harbor.  Got tired of having to rebuild and level up ships because my ships were sunk while I was offline.  This along with the fact that the majority of my time was spend farming mats for base defense building, etc...  Not enough time fighting on ships at sea.

I play Last Oasis now.  Really enjoying it.  Know what I did?  I packed up my crafting base into my Walker (ship) and drove it out of the Oasis, and uploaded it to the Lobby.  It stays there forever, SAFE.  I download it from the lobby when I log in.  This was my 3rd day playing.  We've had a lot of PvP, every single day.  No need for raid timers, when you can keep safe what you don't want to fight with, by uploading it to the Lobby.  You only risk what you take into battle.  Walkers involved in fighting, can't be uploaded until a cool-down timer expires.

 

Also, he has a very valid point with the breeders.  Even a Mythical Galleon represents just a fraction of the time it takes to breed very high level tames.  The time investment there is literally the highest in the game, and involves a lot of sacrifice.  I know, I dabbled in breeding.  Having to set timers for every 8 hours is a pain.

It would be a great idea to be able to designate a tame as a breeder, which would make it unable to store things in it's inventory, but also not take damage.  Games are supposed to be fun.  People turn them into penis measuring contests.  There is a cost point at which players just won't do it anymore.  Tames are one of them.  Somebody who is very much into taming and breeding, is very likely to get discouraged when they had worked for many months to get high level babies, but then lose them in a wipe.  To start over is like looking up at Mt Everest.  Many just can't find the motivation to start that climb all over...knowing that it can all be taken away in a moment.

 

Let me know when there is a Ship vs Ship mode, with limited number of claim flags that give you an area to build safe bases in, and provide safe harbors for anchored ships.  Then I might come back.

Edited by Captain Jack Shadow

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On 5/20/2020 at 4:07 AM, Captain Jack Shadow said:

Much like the way base raiding and defending ruins the game...along with offline raiding.  I lost several ships to harbor runs, the last time I played.  Every single time, I wasn't online when it happened.  I just logged in and found wrecks in the harbor.  Got tired of having to rebuild and level up ships because my ships were sunk while I was offline.  This along with the fact that the majority of my time was spend farming mats for base defense building, etc...  Not enough time fighting on ships at sea.

I play Last Oasis now.  Really enjoying it.  Know what I did?  I packed up my crafting base into my Walker (ship) and drove it out of the Oasis, and uploaded it to the Lobby.  It stays there forever, SAFE.  I download it from the lobby when I log in.  This was my 3rd day playing.  We've had a lot of PvP, every single day.  No need for raid timers, when you can keep safe what you don't want to fight with, by uploading it to the Lobby.  You only risk what you take into battle.  Walkers involved in fighting, can't be uploaded until a cool-down timer expires.

 

Also, he has a very valid point with the breeders.  Even a Mythical Galleon represents just a fraction of the time it takes to breed very high level tames.  The time investment there is literally the highest in the game, and involves a lot of sacrifice.  I know, I dabbled in breeding.  Having to set timers for every 8 hours is a pain.

It would be a great idea to be able to designate a tame as a breeder, which would make it unable to store things in it's inventory, but also not take damage.  Games are supposed to be fun.  People turn them into penis measuring contests.  There is a cost point at which players just won't do it anymore.  Tames are one of them.  Somebody who is very much into taming and breeding, is very likely to get discouraged when they had worked for many months to get high level babies, but then lose them in a wipe.  To start over is like looking up at Mt Everest.  Many just can't find the motivation to start that climb all over...knowing that it can all be taken away in a moment.

 

Let me know when there is a Ship vs Ship mode, with limited number of claim flags that give you an area to build safe bases in, and provide safe harbors for anchored ships.  Then I might come back.

 

Last Oasis is awful. It's like Atlas if there were no powerstones, no kraken/yeti/hydra, you had to grind to use skill points, there were only 2 island types copy/pasted 4,000 times, you had to run around in circles on grass before you could sail your ship, no guns, no unique weapons, no hand to hand, no tames, no customizable ships...

 

no painting things, no custom stuff.

Oh, and literally only ~3 types of wildlife. Rupus, the racoon things and the tiger things.

Yep, have fun with that man.
 

Edited by SeroJ

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On 5/4/2020 at 3:58 PM, Chucksteak said:

Tames are my least favorite part of the game. I find them a complete distraction from the concept and implemented in the heaviest and worst way imaginable. Without a tame, you cannot expect to compete against someone with a tame. Making it a necessity to play "Tiger King" when you signed up to be a pirate. I would like to make tames far more trivial. I should be able to farm with skills at the same rate as a tame can farm. That's just me though, and I realize a lot of people love to be the Tiger King.

Side note, the difference between my fresh tame and your purebred tame you spent countless hours working on is insignificant compared to the vast gap between my fresh tame and the dude with no tame. Food for thought if you keep losing tames, don't breed them and waste your time. Better off doing shipwrecks and buying them, or staying with fresh tames.

I am sure loss of tames causes people to quit. However the loss of a tame does not immediately cut off a vast majority of the game. When you log on and the ship is gone, where you are is where you are (beds aside ofc you can go be stranded on a different island). What your doing is probably working on another ship, witch is not captivating, rewarding, or enjoyable to do for the 1000th time. You are doing no shipwrecks, no SoTD, no whaling, no treasure hunting, no raiding islands, no ship combat, not golden age ruins, no kracken. You can farm, build a base, or build a ship. Even a simple brig is going to take you longer to put together than taming a new bear, elephant and giraffe.

As for FPs. Yeah, by all means, tames should not be allowed to be kept there. At least not off the boat. Absolutely let them declaim in a few hours.

My suggestion to those who haven't herd it before;

All ships gain invulnerably to receive or deal dmg when green anchored. Exactly as it works in peace time on a claimed island, 15 min I think till it turns green. This works on all islands EXCEPT claimed islands in war time. To supplement this rule, the max ship limit should be reduced to 1-3 per person instead of the flat 300.

That's it, no new systems added, just toggle a few values. Smallest patch ever to make the game sustainable when it launches. You could even save some tames in a galley and it wouldn't feel like the cheese it is now to keep a tame or boat in a FP. 

Pros

- Whats on your ship is safe, you won't lose everything in a raid.

- Your ship is safe, you can actually play the game. AND get to go to work AND sleep!

- Your ship CAN BE your base.

Cons

- You cant put very much on a ship.

- You can only make so many ships.

- Ship still sinks to decay.

Do you even play PVP? Invulnerability when green anchored? lol.

 

Yeah i'll just leave all my boats on freefire and have invulnerable turret towers around my island.


Nah freeport is good the way it is. It is a lot of work to keep your boats repaired, so there is a time upkeep cost, and you still have to have bases.

You have to go out and farm, you can't breed there, etc. Also you can only keep 1-2 boats reasonable there so you HAVE to have a base and harbor if you have a lot of boats...

It helps solos and small groups so you can have a boat safe to do stuff and play without an unreasonable time investment.

 

That being said I do agree tames should be nerfed... i enjoy the no-tame pvp a lot, would love to see more melee combat with the dodges/directional blocking etc.

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 The game is supposed to be a naval combat game.  It defies logic to put in a mechanic that absorbs most of  your play time on land (breeding).  I think all tames should be the same level and no breeding whatsoever.  Nothing else changes.  You need an elephant, tame an elephant.  Every elephant is exactly the same and takes a few minutes to tame.  Problem solved.  No stashing at freeport, no wasted time, no breeding economy.  Done.  Get on a damn ship and on the water.

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9 minutes ago, Pattus said:

 The game is supposed to be a naval combat game.  It defies logic to put in a mechanic that absorbs most of  your play time on land (breeding).  I think all tames should be the same level and no breeding whatsoever.  Nothing else changes.  You need an elephant, tame an elephant.  Every elephant is exactly the same and takes a few minutes to tame.  Problem solved.  No stashing at freeport, no wasted time, no breeding economy.  Done.  Get on a damn ship and on the water.

having to defend bases is worse.  THAT locks everyone down on the island, more than anything.  Breeding is typically done by just a small part of a Company...normally a few people.  The rest are focused on building ships and gathering for base construction and defense.

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20 hours ago, SeroJ said:

 

Last Oasis is awful. It's like Atlas if there were no powerstones, no kraken/yeti/hydra, you had to grind to use skill points, there were only 2 island types copy/pasted 4,000 times, you had to run around in circles on grass before you could sail your ship, no guns, no unique weapons, no hand to hand, no tames, no customizable ships...

 

no painting things, no custom stuff.

Oh, and literally only ~3 types of wildlife. Rupus, the racoon things and the tiger things.

Yep, have fun with that man.
 

It's a PvP game, not a PvE.  We have had tons of PvP every single day.  We literally had PvP the entire time I was on.  And you know why there is PvP every day?  Because the game is not focused on base defense.

But I get it...PvE players feel left out in the cold, and honestly, without game changing mods, it will never be a PvE game.  The mechanics on official make it such that building and decorating a base, is just not feasible.  The entire reason for the Walkers is that you must be mobile.  The tile you find yourself on today, will burn up soon, so have to constantly move East.

Also, the game is still in very early access, where as Atlas is about 1.5 years into its 2 year early access.  Last Oasis has been out for 2 months.  Atlas has been out for around 18 months.  In that 18 months, many major game mechanics changes, new animals, new biomes, new weapons, new islands, new outfits, etc...have been added.  Do you think that maybe...just maybe...Last Oasis will add new content also?  Oh wait, they already have, and I'm sure that won't stop. 

If Last Oasis fails, it will be due to lack of content, but they have been adding content.

 

But you know why Last Oasis isn't likely to fail?  Because I can pack up my base on my Walker, log it out to the Lobby, and it is safe, forever...until I log in and decide to put it at risk.   Honestly, I think that full wipe survival games are going to be a thing of the past.  Games that give you reasons to PvP, without having to risk everything you have worked for, will be the games most people gravitate towards, because most people can't devote their life to a game.

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On 5/27/2020 at 9:15 AM, Captain Jack Shadow said:

having to defend bases is worse.  THAT locks everyone down on the island, more than anything.  Breeding is typically done by just a small part of a Company...normally a few people.  The rest are focused on building ships and gathering for base construction and defense.

Change the structure limit to 800 per 30 grid units instead of 8000, that would fix a lot of things too.  That would limit bases to just a tower or two.

 

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On 5/27/2020 at 12:36 PM, Captain Jack Shadow said:

It's a PvP game, not a PvE.  We have had tons of PvP every single day.  We literally had PvP the entire time I was on.  And you know why there is PvP every day?  Because the game is not focused on base defense.

But I get it...PvE players feel left out in the cold, and honestly, without game changing mods, it will never be a PvE game.  The mechanics on official make it such that building and decorating a base, is just not feasible.  The entire reason for the Walkers is that you must be mobile.  The tile you find yourself on today, will burn up soon, so have to constantly move East.

Also, the game is still in very early access, where as Atlas is about 1.5 years into its 2 year early access.  Last Oasis has been out for 2 months.  Atlas has been out for around 18 months.  In that 18 months, many major game mechanics changes, new animals, new biomes, new weapons, new islands, new outfits, etc...have been added.  Do you think that maybe...just maybe...Last Oasis will add new content also?  Oh wait, they already have, and I'm sure that won't stop. 

If Last Oasis fails, it will be due to lack of content, but they have been adding content.

 

But you know why Last Oasis isn't likely to fail?  Because I can pack up my base on my Walker, log it out to the Lobby, and it is safe, forever...until I log in and decide to put it at risk.   Honestly, I think that full wipe survival games are going to be a thing of the past.  Games that give you reasons to PvP, without having to risk everything you have worked for, will be the games most people gravitate towards, because most people can't devote their life to a game.

Lol tries to defend game with no content by saying it is a PVP game

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I think what happens with mmo's now is they try to please both types of players, pvp and pve, But instead of a pve game with opt in pvp they try to do it the other way round. The reason is simple, you can get away with much less game content in a pvp game than a pve. Some games at least have the guts to do just one or the other and by doing so accepting the lower sales margin, but sticking to a linear design that people will either play or not play. I personally don't think a good pvp game with enough content to please an ardent pve player is possible. Eso in my opinion comes closest to pleasing both camps, and that's pve with optional pvp.

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